Catalan Independence? Democracy dies in Spain.

I must admit to finding these updates far more interesting than anything which is happening in the middle east or HK, primarily because it is happening in a democratic country on mainland europe. It certainly isn`t on the scale of the others but fascinating none the less. It could be because I`ve just re-read Orwells 'Homage to Catalonia' which gave an idea how quickly something can get out of hand.
Absolutely agree. It is extremely important issues - much more important than events that happens in remote corners of the World. The scale of protests and brutality of the police are on too high levels to ignore it.
Remarkably European and EU leaders in facts keep silence about the events. Do police use excessive force or not? No comments. As for the protests in Moscow then reaction was more quick.
It's politics - nothing personal.
 
The essential difference is that they are but a few who won through, and their winning does not alter the fact that at some time the were criminals- just very very lucky.
Political criminals. Washington was also a criminal.

In terms of Ireland what did they win, when it comes down to it?
They won their independence. Without the patriots or terrorists depending on the point of view, Ireland would still be part of the UK.
 
I do hope (very sincerely) that it doesn't come to violence, there is a risk it could happen, but what would amount to a repeat of the Northern Ireland pre Good Friday situation would be terrible.

As @Dwarf said the bollock that the Catalan leadership made wasn't so much the unofficial referendum, but the Declaration of Independence, it was a massive political mistake which left Madrid with no real options and the recent trials were inevitable with the predictable verdicts.
0_SPAIN-CATALONIA-POLITICS-TRIAL-DEMO.jpg


Last night.

And no, it's not Belfast or Londonderry.
 
Until we find an effective way to put Madrid under some form of (political) pressure that will not change.
Political pressure can't be applied because nobody else cares. The EU is on Spain's side and there is no foreign power against Spain. The only pressure that Catalans can put on Spanish politicians is to be a pain the back to Spanish voters to the point that they want to get rid of Catalonia. Such as terrorism.

The Catalans though, want a peaceful solution as they have lived through the other way and violent action is not at this moment on the table.
Peaceful solution means no independence. Isn't it clear that Spain will never grant independence unless they are forced?

Yet hypothetically if it were contemplated then there is nothing behind the words to back it up. The Spanish Government since 1939 when Catalunya lost out militarily has been very careful to keep control of all military and police resources. They could put boots on the ground in short order, trained and disciplined, whereas there is nothing on the other side.
It sounds like excuses. Even the dead poor Somali rebels have rocket launchers and destroy tanks. If Catalans don't want to fight for their independence it is their legit decision so they should end this farce. I heard they sing 'Bella ciao', the words of the song are about the 'terrorists' against fascist occupation.

With the threat of islamic terrorism the intelligence forces are reasonably vigilant and could be expected to put a stranglehold on any incoming resources so we would be down to moltov cocktails and a few hunting rifles. The best that could be achieved would be a few home-made explosives to annoy the security forces.
Not true, the black market can't be stopped. Drugs and weapons are always available for people who want them. Even Comp B military explosives that can destroy a train station.

Catalunya would then be a pariah in Europe, investment would flee, tourism would effectively end, and the country would end up going down the drain.
Nothing comes free. If Catalans want independence for free then they have to give up.

On the plus side the Spanish Army has stated that it does not have the manpower to maintain a Banner style occupation for any length of time, and it would stretch the GC and NP very quickly too, while helping put the Spanish economy in the toilet.
This is good for Catalans. It means Spain would give in if Catalonia becomes too problematic to handle.
 
Absolutely agree. It is extremely important issues - much more important than events that happens in remote corners of the World. The scale of protests and brutality of the police are on too high levels to ignore it.
Remarkably European and EU leaders in facts keep silence about the events. Do police use excessive force or not? No comments. As for the protests in Moscow then reaction was more quick.
It's politics - nothing personal.
Yes and why Putin isn't supporting Catalan independence? He has the chance to break Nato up and put bases inside Europe. He's not as ambitious as he seems.
 
Thread Drift.
Wee Krankie has already been told by the EU that if Scotland goes Independent it will not be allowed into the EU.
It therefore loses English taxpayers money via the Barnet Formulae and via the EU.
It will presumably have to continue to use Sterling as it money and therefore be under the financial control of the BoE without any say.
It will not survive as an independent first world country for very long.
That was 5 years ago and pre brexit vote.
 

Dwarf

LE
Disturbances in Barcelona, Lleida, and Girona.
Rubbish skips burnt and for the first time a handful of cars too.
This is making a lot of Catalans unhappy.
We just don't want this.

However while we do have hotheads who undoubtedly are well implicated.the agent provocateur head is raised here. Last problems in Girona had GC identified on video as starting problems to escalate the situation, shown to me by a Mosso mate.
If I get time and can work out how to do so I will post a video showing a National Policeman in uniform throwing stuff on one of the fires.

A Twitter message that was later deleted from Eduardo Llorens of Cuitadans/Citizens is very explicit, here translated.

"The action is good. Very good.
We have to provoke a violent reaction from the Independentistes. We have the story / fable well constructed and in place but we need acts of violence from them to consolidate it.
They will react finally, we just have to keep the pressure on."


Speaks for itself.
 
With no action what hope of independence is there? None. Looking as the good guys is useless because there is no public opinion to convince. Spain has no intention to concede independence. I don't understand the point of peaceful independence claims. Peace means Spain wins.
 

Dwarf

LE
With no action what hope of independence is there? None. Looking as the good guys is useless because there is no public opinion to convince. Spain has no intention to concede independence. I don't understand the point of peaceful independence claims. Peace means Spain wins.
While you have a point, which is more or less the same as I have made that unless we find some way to put pressure on Spain then independence is unlikely, you seem inordinately keen to see a shooting war started.
Political pressure can't be applied because nobody else cares. The EU is on Spain's side and there is no foreign power against Spain. The only pressure that Catalans can put on Spanish politicians is to be a pain the back to Spanish voters to the point that they want to get rid of Catalonia. Such as terrorism.
Terrorism won't work, Spain would do the same as they did with ETA, we would have a constant police-military presence and a dirty war which would leave deep scars.
Most Catalans reject terrorism having suffered a bit themselves. It's not a viable option.

Peaceful solution means no independence. Isn't it clear that Spain will never grant independence unless they are forced?
See above

It sounds like excuses. Even the dead poor Somali rebels have rocket launchers and destroy tanks. If Catalans don't want to fight for their independence it is their legit decision so they should end this farce. I heard they sing 'Bella ciao', the words of the song are about the 'terrorists' against fascist occupation.
Pure fantasy land. Why are you so keen to have the Catalans armed to the teeth and in a shooting war?
It won't happen, there are simply no real resources for it to happen even if the desire was there.

Not true, the black market can't be stopped. Drugs and weapons are always available for people who want them. Even Comp B military explosives that can destroy a train station.
Not in any quantity.

Nothing comes free. If Catalans want independence for free then they have to give up.
Freedom will have its price to pay, but death and destruction is not the way Catalans would choose

This is good for Catalans. It means Spain would give in if Catalonia becomes too problematic to handle.
Misreading the Spanish mentality, historically they have always held on to what they had until forced to let go.

I repeat why do you want a war here? The Catalans don't. If that means no independence then so be it. If it means patience and independence further down the line then that is a far better option than a wrecked country and all that entails.

The Independence movement is inherently peaceful, a lesson learned through history and reinforced in 1640, 1714, and 1939-74. It has to be so. If that means independence is unlikely at this point in time then that's that.
I'm sorry if that disappoints you.
You have made the point now please let it go.

Ed to add a y
 
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Dwarf

LE
General strike today. Roads cut, big, long marches converging on Barcelona and more demos planned. After the apathy in which the Process had descended this has managed to re-ignite passions and get people moving again. Where it will lead to I have no idea.
One mate is on a 100k march with a lot of others.

The violence looks quite spectacular but in general it's mainly rubbish skips, and in some places the locals have prevented idiots from setting fires.

An 18 year old student told me her experience of Girona.
"We were standing and singing and a line of police formed. One boy went and sat down in front of them and a lot of us joined them, just sitting and singing.
Then along came a few who simply wanted trouble. They started something and the police went after them. My friend and I with another girl ended up in a doorway, looking down with our hands up. (Advice from her Mosso dad.)
After a while the police told us to clear off but still one of them hit my friend as we went."

What is happening is a a few are causing the problems, most people are anti-violent action as I hope the above illustrates.

All police forces are collaborating and the Mossos need to show they are doing the necessary otherwise there is a real danger of losing their autonomy and being subordinated to Madrid as the right-wing wants. That said the real thugs are the National Police.

There is evidence, confirmed on La Sexta, Spanish TV Channel reasonably independent, that the people causing this are paid to cause trouble and are not independentistes. They come from outside and some are anti-system, some are ultras who have an intrest in causing unrest, and it has been suggested some are police.
Undoubtedly we have our own hotheads who are leaping on the bandwaggon, but this is not what the vast majority of us want.

The Government says that they are Catalans and organised, which allows Sanchez to show how hard he is with the elections coming up. I despair of all this.

I'm trying very hard not to be plastic paddy about all this and trying to reflect what is thought up in my little independence-minded town in Catalunya. But many here feel absolutely no loyalty whatsoever to Spain now and also have serious doubts about our own politicians.
 
It looks pretty busy over there

 

Dwarf

LE

Tyk

LE
That was 5 years ago and pre brexit vote.
It was obvious years ago that the EU would take a VERY dim view of an independent Scotland, for the simple reason that quite a few regions of several EU countries would love to become independent. If the EU encouraged breakups of countries by allowing Scotland to join then Catalonia and others would see it as a huge green light. Not a mystery to anyone that thought about it for a few minutes.

I am very concerned that Catalonia could get ugly like Ulster did, obviously the reasons are different, but the levels of feeling aren't. All it takes is a small group of nutters like the IRA.
 
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danielwayne

Swinger
Notwithstanding some historical considerations which are undeniable, the present situation in Catalonia is a product of an education policy that has attacked Spain and its language. I mean, if you teach your youth that A is bad and B is good, later you will reap the consequences.
Young catalonians want independence, whilst the others do not. Basically, the catalonian public schools have been breeding separatists.
The catalonian language, for example, was dead (Franco's doing). It is not dead now.

As someone who was born in Portugal (we have a saying here, "from Spain comes nothing good, neither favourable winds nor good marriages"), I feel no sympathy for both the Spanish and the catalonians (although I recognise the economic importance of Spain to Portugal, and this is why I'm not fond of any political event which might disrupt the Spanish economy).
We, Portugal, obtained (fought for it, astutely using English crusaders in the process, and bribed the then Pope with vast quantities of gold) our independence almost 900 years ago (an epic battle between our first King and his mother and her friends from Castille - some in Portugal still believe he smacked her in the face when she told him she was siding with the his enemies), lost it (after our young, brainless and unmarried King decided to invade Northern Africa, losing the battle, killing himself* and almost all of the nobility) in 1580 to the most powerful of all Spanish monarchs (exactly, the King of the Spanish Armada), but, unlike the catalonians, we never adjusted ourselves to the union (historically known as The Iberian Union) and the Portuguese often tried to revolt.
We regained our freedom 60 years later (in the most spectacular fashion imaginable, throwing out of the window of the government's headquarters in Lisbon the main representative of the King in Portugal, Dom Miguel de Vasconcelos, a name which is still reviled today and employed to describe someone as a traitor; besides this, the fact that other parts in Spain, including the one that justifies this topic, were in revolt helped the Portuguese cause), in a war that lasted 20 years, pitting vastly outnumbered Portuguese armies against the Spanish, bankrupted the country and alienated half of our Empire (lost to the Dutch, which became our number one foe once the Iberian Union was made official).

* some historians believe he did not die and was captured, sold to the Spanish (the Spanish King was his uncle) and imprisoned by them in some luxurious mansion located in present day Italy.
Three men said they were him, one of them even led a minor revolt against a Spanish garrison. The three were executed.
 
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It looks pretty busy over there

UK media reports over 500,000

Compare and contrast with the millions that took part in Anti-B***** rallies in the UK :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Barcelona last night

4386.jpg


Whether this is down to rioters or as has been suggested, stage managed to provoke actions, sad time for Spain.
 
Terrorism won't work, Spain would do the same as they did with ETA, we would have a constant police-military presence and a dirty war which would leave deep scars.
Catalonia has a higher potential. They could harm Spain hard if they wanted

Pure fantasy land. Why are you so keen to have the Catalans armed to the teeth and in a shooting war?
It won't happen, there are simply no real resources for it to happen even if the desire was there.
Only the will is necessary. Resources would follow.

Not in any quantity.
At 10:25 am, a timed improvised explosive device (IED) contained in an unattended suitcase detonated inside a popular air-conditioned waiting room. The IED was made of a "Compound B", also known as Composition B. The explosion destroyed most of the main building and hit the Ancona–Chiasso train that was waiting at the first platform. The blast was heard for miles. The roof of the waiting room collapsed onto the passengers, which greatly increased the total number killed in the terrorist attack.

Freedom will have its price to pay, but death and destruction is not the way Catalans would choose
So what way do they choose? They can't choose if they want independence

Misreading the Spanish mentality, historically they have always held on to what they had until forced to let go.
It's 2019, Spain is less democratic than other nations but they still have to respond to modern public opinion. When Islamic terrorists bombed Spain in 2005 Spanish voters blamed it on the government and voted the opposition. Spanish voters wanted to leave the war in Iraq rather than having deaths in their cities.

I repeat why do you want a war here? The Catalans don't. If that means no independence then so be it. If it means patience and independence further down the line then that is a far better option than a wrecked country and all that entails.
Then what is the point of rallying and protests? They should end the independence claim because without war it's a lost cause. Patience is pointless, they can wait until hell freezes down.

The Independence movement is inherently peaceful, a lesson learned through history and reinforced in 1640, 1714, and 1939-74. It has to be so. If that means independence is unlikely at this point in time then that's that.
I'm sorry if that disappoints you.
So why do they protest? They should end the independence campaign because there is no hope peacefully.
 

Dwarf

LE
Notwithstanding some historical considerations which are undeniable, the present situation in Catalonia is a product of an education policy that has attacked Spain and its language. I mean, if you teach your youth that A is bad and B is good, later you will reap the consequences.
Young catalonians want independence, whilst the others do not. Basically, the catalonian public schools have been breeding separatists.
The catalonian language, for example, was dead (Franco's doing). It is not dead now.

As someone who was born in Portugal (we have a saying here, "from Spain comes nothing good, neither favourable winds nor good marriages"), I feel no sympathy for both the Spanish and the catalonians (although I recognise the economic importance of Spain to Portugal, and this is why I'm not fond of any political event which might disrupt the Spanish economy).
We, Portugal, obtained (fought for it, astutely using English crusaders in the process, and bribed the then Pope with vast quantities of gold) our independence almost 900 years ago (an epic battle between our first King and his mother and her friends from Castille - some in Portugal still believe he smacked her in the face when she told him she was siding with the his enemies), lost it (after our young, brainless and unmarried King decided to invade Northern Africa, losing the battle, killing himself* and almost all of the nobility) in 1580 to the most powerful of all Spanish monarchs (exactly, the King of the Spanish Armada), but, unlike the catalonians, we never adjusted ourselves to the union (historically known as The Iberian Union) and the Portuguese often tried to revolt.
We regained our freedom 60 years later (in the most spectacular fashion imaginable, throwing out of the window of the government's headquarters in Lisbon the main representative of the King in Portugal, Dom Miguel de Vasconcelos, a name which is still reviled today and employed to describe someone as a traitor; besides this, the fact that other parts in Spain, including the one that justifies this topic, were in revolt helped the Portuguese cause), in a war that lasted 20 years, pitting vastly outnumbered Portuguese armies against the Spanish, bankrupted the country and alienated half of our Empire (lost to the Dutch, which became our number one foe once the Iberian Union was made official).

* some historians believe he did not die and was captured, sold to the Spanish (the Spanish King was his uncle) and imprisoned by them in some luxurious mansion located in present day Italy.
Three men said they were him, one of them even led a minor revolt against a Spanish garrison. The three were executed.
That is a very superficial reading, though the Catalan teaching system has been under attack for years as being perceived as un-spanish. The Catalan language was not dead under Franco, it was spoken at home, and between friends. It was prohibited in public and schools in an attempt to erase it, and obviously it didn't work.
The Catalan school system uses Catalan as the vehicular language in part to preserve the language, in part to give everyone who lives in Catalunya the same footing. Spanish is taught and certainly not attacked and in playgrounds, especially in Barcelona you can hear a lot of Spanish amongst the kids.
Young Catalans want independence sure, a lot of older Catalans do too but they couldn't voice it before, it is only under a more modern climate that they are allowed to express it. The demonstrations are filled with a wide age range. My daughter went to the first big march and came back with eyes shining saying "It's good to see we aren't alone and maybe we can do this". For the first time it was out in the open, the Spanish have been breeding Catalan separatists for a long, long time, and the Catalans were never truly happy under Spanish rule, but now it's expressed, that's the difference.
Do the schools teach people to be anti-Spain? Not really, but they do teach a Catalan version of history, just as the Basques do, the Spanish do and the Portuguese as well. I am sure your version of Vasconcelos is different to the Spanish. English history and French often seem like stories from different planets, It isn't surprising.

Sorry to hear we might be hurting your economy but if the Spanish had addressed the problem when and as they should have done it wouldn't now be an issue. As you say about what comes out of Spain......


The history bit was informative, thank you.
 

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