Catalan Independence? Democracy dies in Spain.

Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by Dwarf, Jan 12, 2014.

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  1. My bold
    From El Periodico on Wednesday (excuse the translation)
    Mossos accuse Major Trapero of the "ungovernability" of 1-O, informs 'El Mundo'

    The Mossos agents questioned in the courts that instruct the cases opened by the convocation of the 1-O have detailed that the commanders denied them reinforcements, did not mobilise the riot police and gave them no tape to seal the schools to avoid the placement of the ballot boxes.

    The alleged plan of Trapero to facilitate the holding of the independence referendum is one of the most prominent news in the newspapers of Barcelona and Madrid on Wednesday.

    Note it says one of the most prominent news items
    Also reported on the same day in El Mundo which I note that El Periodico is quoting.


    Pretty sure there was something along similar lines in La Vanguardia as well.
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2017
  2. Well it might be quiet on the surface but there are a few things happening over here, and some that are not fantastic.

    The prisoners have appeared in front of the judge of the Supreme Court and he will make a decision on monday. They have promised to abide by the Constitution so that they can be part of the elections.

    155 is having an effect, the most mediatic was ordering the return of some medieval artworks to another community that had been in Catalunya for some time and under Catalan law they were there to stay. Enter 155.
    At least the dispute is over.

    The biggest effect obviously is the firing of the government and the imprisonment of various members with the president abroad.

    But also the Catalan delegations to other countries have been closed on the grounds that embassadorial functions only pertain to the central government. However the delegations had a range of functions that included promoting trade for a start and widening interest in Catalunya as a place and forging economic links.
    It would have been simple enough just to reduce their functions but this seems aimed at harming the economic potential of Catalunya among other factors.

    There is a collision of competences in that decisions made by the Generalitat are over-ruled by Madrid. An example just down the road was a town called Medinya which separated from its parent municipality and became one itself. This was over-ruled by the Constitutional Tribunal and Medinya has to revert to forming part of Sant Julia de Ramis despite having the support of the Generalitat.

    Catalunya has 90 contracts paused, 70 projects frozen, grants held back, and 500 entities with their income delayed. The latter including many social projects such as helping the unemployed and disadvantaged.

    The budget has been modified and is under a microscope.

    Podemos have said that they will challenge 155 in the TC, over its legality. Nice of him but I can't see it prospering.

    Meanwhile Rajoy has said it's a reality and we have to restore 'normality'. In a way he is right, but normality will not be what it was before.
    The PP are talking about dialogue, but always within the 'mark of the law'. In other words they will talk about things but not about what should be talked about, so situation no change.
    Also they seduced Sanchez into supporting them by promising constitutional reform, but now the word is that it must be within the law. So again, talk but nothing of substance that would really change anything or mean anything to those who need or want reform.
    These people really are a case, all they want is for the problem to go away and for things to settle down like they were before, ignoring the 2m+ Catalans who want to separate from Spain, and the up to 80% who want a vote. And if things don't settle down then there is the traditional Spanish method of the big stick. Traditonalists to the core.

    Things also get petty and it shows their minds. Yellow is a colour that is on the verge of being prohibited, believe it or not. To show support for those in prison people have taken to wearing yellow ribons and putting bigger ones all over the place. (See below)
    So yellow is not being allowed in Christmas decorations in public places.

    If I can post it I have a video of a pair of grannies with husbands that were walking along the seafront at Mataro where Rajoy was in a campaign meeting. They happened to be wearing yellow scarves and one was carrying a yellow ribbon. The National Police turned them back and refused them access along a public right of way.


    There is talk now which recognises that The Republic will have to wait a bit, but that progress could be made. As a friend says, "We have got so far and can't go any further, so let's make what we can".
    Piugdemont was talking about getting the Catalan national Identity recognised, which ties in with what Urkullu was asking for the Basque country. That would be a good start, and Sanchez was talking about that as a pallative and possible part-solution. However I think that PP and Cs would fight that tooth and nail, despite it being a positive step.

    Next up, there are two holiday days this week, wednesday and friday, many bridge on thursday and have the day off as well. (Not me I'm self-employed :( ) So quite a number of people are travelling to Brussels to give support to the 'presi'. There are nine coaches going from my town and others making their own ways there. According to my barman who is usually well-informed there were at least 20k people registered as going and based on past experience then there should be a lot more than that. So be prepared for Brussels to be full of estelades next week. Not that it will affect Madrid at all.

    It's bloody cold here at the moment, and that will surely be laid at the door of the independentistes as well.:oops:
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  3. Thanks for that. Can't remember anything in the Vanguardia, but the Mundo is not my favourite source of unbiased information. They make the Mail look a paragon of virtue especially when it relates to Catalunya.
  4. I deliberately did not link El Pais. Now that is a paper that I equate with the Mail nowadays. Thought El Mundo was a bit better and La Vanguardia simply said the investigation was under way but didn't actually report on it.
  5. I always had it the other way round, but El Pais has slipped a fair bit recently which I think is a shame.
    When I'm in the newsagents I always check out the headlines and most of the Madrid press express things that are just not what people here are thinking or doing. I often just shake my head and think/say "That's just a load of feckin' bollocks". I worry that the Madrid press are passing on a picture of what is thought or happens here that is just not accurate or not as people here view the thing. So the Spanish get the wrong impression of what this is about in relation to what the bloke on the streets think.
    Looking at that article in El Mundo it's going a bit OTT and playing a bit fast with the interpretation. My Mosso mates would not support that POV as it stands. On the night an action at 0400 wouldn't have had much effect as there were no urns and the polling stations were in civil use. Also the Rambo bit in front of a lot of people sounds ironic to me, nobody would have stopped a Mosso had he insisted in entering a polling station.
    The Mossos I chatted to on the day and subsequently had no complaints at all, and I'm sure that some would have liked to have been a bit more active (not violent) but the judge said minimal disturbance and that's what they did. As my mate said "They are Catalan police and there for the Catalan people."
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2017
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  6. Junqueras and Forn to remain in custody but the other 6 released on bail. All can stand in the upcoming elections and the six released, including the Catalan Parliament speaker, will kick off their election campaign.
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  7. With bail of 100,000€ each. The two Jordis also remain in prison.
    All four are kept in due to the possibility of 'reitieracion delictiva' or as I understand the liklihood of repeating illegal acts.

    It doesn't help ERC but Junqueras is in constant contact with his no.2

    The two Jordis are unlikely to be in a position to repeat the action that put them behind bars, although they would go back to heading their organizations. However I see that as a warning to the Catalans just before the elections. Intentional or not.
    Not something that is likely to calm the emotions here.
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  8. I heard a little more about the judges' decision at lunchtime. The four were kept in prison because it was considered that they had been part of the cause of an explosion of violence and that there was a danger of reoffending.
    That seems to be following the line of the late Prosecutor who considered that there was implicit violence.
    Personally I can't go along with the explosion of violence theory as it doesn't fit in with what I have seen of the Process here. It has been a Process untainted by violent actions on the Independence side and I think the excuse/reason is stretching it.

    Tarda of ERC who is usually quite sensible with his feet on the ground, and a decent reader of the political scene today said that he never thought he would ever use the word vengance in the context of government, but that it was appropriate today, and sad.

    I have to say that I see it as a decision that is not strictly legally based, and whether that is right or wrong it is shared by many here.

    The final word came from Jordi' Sanchez' lawyer when he said that the biggest sadness for Jordi was to be labelled as violent.

    NB I also see that the Corsicans are beginning to stir.
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  9. Well, things happening but I haven't had that much time to post. Briefly the parties are jockeying for position and the same stuff as usual.

    The big news was that 45,000 Catalans went up to Brussels over a bank holiday to support Puigdemont. There may have been more but that is going by the Sprouts' calculations. There was no trouble, not even litter and the Sprouts were impressed by the civility. They had plenty of police on show but with nothing to do except observe and chat to the people.
    The last time Brussels had a big demo there were 100,000 on the streets and that was from all Europe, not bad for a little country.
    What will it do? Not a lot because Madrid almost ignored it and Timmermans said that he was listening but that the Catalans should work within the law to change it, so situation no change. The only thing is maybe showing Europe that the thing hasn't gone away.
    Crass comment of the day was from Soraya who said that they could only be there thanks to their Spanish ID cards and EU membership. maybe she should engage brain before speaking.
    Worst comment was from El Pais who headlined with '45,000 Catalans show their hate for Spain in Brussels'. - That is reporting and rabble rousing at its worst. And just for the record Catalans don't hate Spain, (except for this government) many merely want their own recognition as a country and make their own decisions.

    On that note I read that I read that Urkullu the Basque leader has asked the EU to produce a 'clear directive' that allows stateless nations like Basque Country and Catalunya which form part of the european project to have a legal path with guarantees in order to be able to consult their citizens and open a path to negotiate over their future.' He considers it necessary to have an ad hoc community procedure which allows the possibility of states that emerge as a consequence of a procedure capable of combining the democratic process with legality. Europe has to accept an undeniable reality, anticipate/propose political solutions, and offer a way to express these legitimate demands'.

    It's clear what he is driving at, and the Basques may well start looking to start their own process, which Madrid will not like at all. But the Spanish system is resistant to change, especially with the recentralising PPs and Cs, so even Sanchez's light proposals of recognising Spain's multinational reality will be dug under and ignored.

    Forming part of that system I saw the headline of El Mundo today said that Cardinal Rouco Spain's catholic primate, said that independentism does not fit with the catholic conscience. Apart from being a highly incorrect statement, several Catalan bishops can attest to that, it shows that the state machinery and supporting pillars are simply carrying on as they always have. Using religion to sway political beliefs has always been a Spanish thing.

    It's simply depressing.
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  10. On the political front Rajoy claimed that he had stopped the anomaly of independentism in its tracks. This through the use of 155, which in itself I find worrying as the PPs seem to like having this weapon in their hands. (Bit like my introduction to the GPMG.:rambo:)
    However this is not true by any means, it's still there simply looking for leadership and a path.
    He has stopped the immediate progress in that the Republic didn't happen and its leadership is in disarray. Independence parties are looking for ways ahead but taking into account 155 they know that they have to tread carefully.
    The Spanish press also seem to be sowing disharmony and giving out a wrong message to Spain. I see that the Madrid papers are saying that ERC has promised CUP that they will go unilateral if Rajoy turns a deaf ear or doesn't recognise the results of the election.
    It's not exactly what I got, but it does raise the question that what happens when Rajoy simply expects the independence minded to quietly forget all this and 'restore normality'.

    I was chatting to someone who said that independence is not viable in the short term, but we simply have to keep on with the goal in mind. It's not going away.
    He also said, which is true, that if Catalunya was all like Girona province then we would have had independence some time ago.The problem is the big urban-industrial area of Barcelona with its Spanish population. This is a problem that needs to be solved or sorted out.

    The political parties have begun the infighting. C's putting the boot into the PP who reply that they will need a coalition after the election so why do so? They appear to be expecting to win.
    ERC says that it makes no sense to have a non-present president so vote for them and also to avoid having the Cs as the biggest party. Yet ignores the fact that their boss is still behind bars.

    The position simply seems to be repeating the 2015 elections with indy parties short of a full majority, the unionists behind them and an undefined middle ground number of votes that could swing it.

    Ten days to go and I'm expecting Madrid to do something before then.
  11. my village is now decorated with lots of banners featuring this symbol (Put up by the council I think) Seems that they are not backing independa DLmjxZKW0AAGM1G.jpg nce
  12. Whichever way it goes, I reckon the turnout could break a record or two.

    Sorry, I just read the bit The problem is the big urban-industrial area of Barcelona with its Spanish population. This is a problem that needs to be solved or sorted out.
    Such as? Make Barcelona independent of the rest of Catalonia? And just the city or the whole region of Barcelona? Ban anyone in that region from voting?
    "It's Spanish population"? Really? What about the Spanish population of Lleida? Or Tarragona? Quite a few there and I believe there have already been some attacks in Girona on people and property who have flown the Spanish flag.
    Of course, disregarding Barcelona to become independent would be rather counter-productive as that is the power house of Catalonia, the place where all the money comes from.
    And what do you expect Madrid to do in the next 10 days?
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2017
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  13. C's have a lot of money to spend and they are doing so.
    For the non-resisdents that is the C's logo for the elections.

    If Arrimades gets it it will be a disaster for Catalunya, more because she is inept and thinks she is better than she is (think Teresa May) and will dismantle a lot of what is autonomous Catalunya in the name of recentralisation. That would have any of the autonomies up in arms if it happened to them.

    EdMong speling
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2017
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  14. The old chinese curse "May you live in interesting times" is catching up with me again:(
  15. :twisted: