Catalan Independence? Democracy dies in Spain.

Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by Dwarf, Jan 12, 2014.

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  1. Missus went straight to sleep. damn.

    No mate I'm not saying all media I'm saying some. That the Sexta had the march on is great, which makes me wonder why PPC tried to stop live coverage here on TV3, I think it's because Albiol has it in for them. I saw the Alicante march on TV3 also, not bad numbers. But the news slot on A3 had nothing at all.

    Believe me here the UDI call has received a lot of taking apart and analysing on all levels and people aren't too impressed over the way it ws done. Wor Ada is also well known for saying things one day and correcting the next.
    Puigdemont's trip is seen by many as a tactical one at this time, not an abandonment, shame that now he's away the Junts Pel Si breaks up leaving him a bit out on a limb.
    The economic thing is being blown up further than it really is, yes there has been a blip, but as commented today people are on standby waiting to see what happens. Yes companies have gone but if there is a place that has shown recovery powers over the years it's here.
     
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  2. Couple of things. My favourite banner from yesterday's demo.

    In Spain the King lives like a God
    The Bankers live like kings
    The politicians live like bankers
    The people live like indigents.

    On the way home listening to the radio a politician who was barred from public office for a couple of years over he last consultation, said that Madrid says the Catalans do this, that and so on, but the never ask or pose the question why are they doing it? That is important I think.


    Interior Minister Zoido* is making the Mossos report every day and pretty much every action.
    When talking about the strike when the railway lines and several roads were cut and occupied he explained that the police didn't try to dislodge the protesters because they were under instructions to only use proportional force. Funny that, Trapero the Mossos' boss was removed for doing precisely that on 1 Oct as in the judge's remit.
    Nothing to do with trying to look good in front of Europe and with the elections coming up.


    (*a fat hippo who is keeping the Police on ships on crap scoff while he has no problems eating).
     
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  3. Situation today, the separatist bloc of ERC-PdeCat has now separated and will go to the elections as individual parties.
    There are a couple of ways of looking at this,the first that as per usual the squabbling of little parties in Catalunya precludes them ever getting anywhere.
    The second is that ERC see that to continue on the same line is to get nowhere fast and that another approach has to be taken. So they are gambling on being the largest party after the elections which may well happen. Then they will work broadly towards the same aims but using a more softly approach.
    Problem is that Junqueras is in jail, though I suspect that they will be released in due course provided that they agree to work within constitutional limits. However I have been wrong before.
    The second is that it leaves Puigdemont in Brussels still capitaining a ship that has a smaller crew everyday. The move to Brussels was tactical and positive in highlighting the situation and questioning democratic principles not just in Spain but also in Europe (whatever the answer) was useful in the moment . However he is now at a distance from his party and abandoned by a segment of his grouping and it remains to be seen how far ERC will support him especially while they are concentrating on getting their boss sprung. How far his remaining in Brussels becomes useful now becomes questionable, as a potential re-voted president returning to be arrested would have been a powerful image, as the leader of a smaller party, though albeit a President of the Generalitat, the image will have less impact.
    Had Junts pel Si remained in being then with Puigdemont in jail a released Junqueras would have been effectively the boss and able to redirect the collision. But that's just for the 'what if' file now.

    Impressions I got from saturday, and it's always instructive to go to these gatherings for this reason.
    3.3km of people, plus side-roads which may, or may not, have been included in the count is not shabby by any means, 3/4m people. There were non-indy people there in support of imprisoned leaders, and of course many indep supporters. Madrid has raised a huge amount of indignation among the Catalans by the way they have handled the imprisonments. Very few here believe that the judges acted totally impartially, and that there was no political bias in the decisions.
    Also that there is still a very large number of people who support separation from Spain, and they won't simply go home and be good little Spaniards after the election, the problem needs a solution and Rajoy isn't giving one he's simply managing a situation to his party's benefit. Listening to the families of those in prison reading speeches and to the daughter of
    one of the Jordis then it struck me that Madrid has created a future crusader, and that the younger generation, now in their twenties will be stronger than ever in their search for national identity.
    I also worry about the gap now opened between Spaniard and Catalan, and I see the gulf even wider than before especially among certain sectors of society. That will take time to heal.

    Ed for minor adjustments.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2017
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  4. Reckon this is wound down as a thread so I'll finish with a couple of points from the news.

    Rajoy still threatens 155 if he doesn't get a government he wants, though he puts it if independentism wins and breaks the law.
    Possibly because new information that puts his party deeper in the corruption case is coming to light.

    The people who blocked the rails of the High Velocity Train are to be charged if identified while Rajoy calls them barbarians and extreme radicals, which is simply not true, just a load of fed up people.

    ERC and PdeCat are trying to get the secrecy veil lifted over the 1 Oct Police Op about planning, costs, and the orders they were given. Won't happen in a PP controlled Senate.

    Well people here are feeling anger and betrayal by their leaders, that apparently they simply weren't honest enough. Had they said that they couldn't go as far as they wanted right then people would have understood. Catalans have been patient for a long time, they'll have to be patient for longer.
     
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  5. I wouldn't go so far as to say the thread is "wound down", it's just that not much is happening just now.

    That will obviously change as the EAW hearings in Belgium get under way, and then there's the elections in, what, a month or so.

    And that's before anything else kicks off in the intervening period, which is likely in my opinion
     
  6. I've feelimg this has a long way to go yet . The run up to the elections, half the old government in jail, others still in Belgium . Not finished by a long way.
     
  7. Ah, fine, just really seeing if anyone was still following this and not all got bored with it .
    I don't mind posting if it's being read.
    I'll stay on net then.
     
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  8. There's quite a few Arrses who live in this part of the world. Speaking pesonally your input is greatly valued .
     
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  9. Typo?

    Or reality?
     
  10. Whatever the correct plural for a member of the Arsse comunity is. :) Arrsers?
     
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  11. Thank you.

    According to my partner today after I got lunchtime wrong, it's reality.
     
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  12. Interestingly, Rajoy today in an interview said that never in the history of Europe post-war has such an exceptional measure as 155 been applied.
    His implication is that the situation and independentistes are so grave that it was necessary.
    However I would suggest that as the only person in Europe who has let the situation get so out of hand he had to apply it then it's on his plate. To me it's a confession of failure.

    He also talked today about equality between Spaniards when different treatments applied to different communities shows that one up, yet by repitition it seems to be taken for granted as true.

    Also see that a judge in the Supreme Court is requiring the judge in the Audiencia Nacional to inform him of everything about the cases involving the independence, so he can effectively judge the cases he has on his table involving Forcadell.
    That the Audiencia Nacional had the cases in the first place is a bit iffy as it's not their brief, cases like this should have been taken straight to the Supreme.
    It opens the door to a possible liberation of the prisoners, though the AN judge has confirmed a 6m+ € bail for the politicians.
    I do suspect her loyalty in this case as she seems politicised or at least heavily influenced by politics.

    Ed to make better sense.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017
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  13. Sequel of 1 Oct, a particpant of the referendum who lost the use of his right eye after being hit by a rubber bullet/ball is taking legal action to try to get the things banned and to seek responsbility both at police and political level.
    There is good video, and unfaked, of a National Policeman firing the round that hit him. The police are in line with the crowd at about 15m and making no hostile moves, the police are in no danger.
    The policeman does not aim the round he fires but from the hip, bounces it off the ground about halfway between himself and the crowd. The round bounces up and hits the victim in the face and he falls to the ground and is eventually stretchered away.
    He has lost the vision in his eye and suffers head aches, had he worn glasses it would have been much worse.

    These rounds have been banned in Catalunya since a similar incident five years ago when a woman lost her eye. The NP made good use of them though, and in my view given the above footage and similar that I have seen, unprofessionally.

    The Mossos in the incident with the woman have received punishment, the NP has not been identified. Given that medals are being handed out I see it unlikely that he will be officially identified and this will go unpunished.

    With the legal judgements and so on I see this as a case of the State not admitting responsibilities in cases where in other countries they would be. I'm interested to see how the state rallies round protecting its own even when in the wrong, as in this case, and thus lowering the quality of democracy. For a party that insists on the rule of law they seem very little inclined to extend its protection to those whom they claim as citizens. The victim, a random target of an unaimed round should have some protection under law, but I would be surprised if this prospers much beyond a cafe sin galetas if the officer is identified.

    Please note this isn't a picked on post, I would have been indignant had it occurred anywhere in Spain against anyone standing with his hands up.


    It did occur to me though he is the perfect person to reply to the Interior Minister with a "Proportional force, my eye!"

    ED for final comment
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017
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