Catalan Independence? Democracy dies in Spain.

Thanks for your reply, I trust its not taking too much of your drinking time, however there are two sides to the story and for the outsiders its crucial to understand the problem before an informed stance can be taken.
Your pro-independence views are clear, no hidden agenda, but not being 'Catalan' enables you to take a more pragmatic view of what is achievable in the current political climate.
The hope is that some sort of solution can be fudged (maybe federalism), since as it stands, independence is worrying scenario mainly because of the unknown reaction of the Spanish government and wider consequences.

I take your point about historical, cultural, language being a source of a national identity steering the region on a course to full independence, the attempt to suppress that Catalan identity for many years is probably the largest 'separatist' recruiter.

There are Catalans who are immensely proud of all of the above yet still regard being Catalan and Spanish as perfectly compatible, albeit they would probably like to deepen the autonomy. No idea what proportion of the population that would be, a quick google an article in 'EL Mundo' 23 FEB. 2018 shows the % for independence dropping (in RED). I don't know the reliability got these figures or how it may have changed since latest events.


¿Quiere que Cataluña se convierta en un estado independiente?
En porcentaje

The problem with any solution now is that unless it is truly worked it can only be temporary.
I always advocated a federal solution, and as a solution in the immediate future it might be workable. Noting that the Basques also are raising the question of national identity and the right to decide. It could answer that question.
However there are a number of Catalans who feel that after the recent treatment the only real solution is to cut the ties. This independence movement will persist and slowly grow. Still there also a number who would accept a federal solution as being that which is achievable in the short-to-medium term, with a view to the Republic further down the line.
That is basically my position BTW.

The problem still remains on how to sell that to the Spanish. I am sure the Basques would accept it, and probably a majority of Catalans taking into account voters for the middle ground parties have been after this all along.

But I think that this would be unacceptable to a major part of the rest of Spain, especially those who wish the Basques and Catalans to toe the line and shut up. Those who see the big stick as the solution.
How big a part of the population this is I have no idea, but reading things I see in the press and online I suspect it is rather large.

As to the El Mundo I personally take their Catalan reporting with a large pinch of salt. Numbers for independence did drop for a bit, but the good old PP managed to nudge them back up.
 
Battle for the leadership of the PP gets under way both Soraya and Cospodal are in the fray and probably the best placed. I reckon Soraya will take it. She has undoubtedly been working the system whereas a more capable candidate such as Margallo won't have the support.
Cospodal is a bit like a Spanish Teresa May.
Soraya is like the worst of Merkel and Maggie in one pot. Capable in Parliament certainly but her policies won't favour the country as being very rigid. She is a believer in everyone in their place and that they should know where that is.


Anecdote: I was cycling home from the market today, it's only a short ride, thinking about this, and just when I reckoned that Soraya would win and that she would be a lot worse than Mariano in relation to Catalunya then a bird crapped on my arm. I'm taking that as an augury.
 
This afternoon the Spanish press are reporting that Torra (Catalan President ) has invited the King to a meeting to dialogue and negotiate when visiting Cataluna for the opening of the Mediterranean games. The response from the palace is that the King is unable to undertake political negotiations, that is up to the Government and is part of the constitution.
Again I think it would have more sensitive to make it clear that political negotiations were off the agenda but meet with the Catalan President to have informal talks about whatever.

An announcement has also been made that presidents Pedro Sanchez and Kim Torra will meet on July 9th.
 
This afternoon the Spanish press are reporting that Torra (Catalan President ) has invited the King to a meeting to dialogue and negotiate when visiting Cataluna for the opening of the Mediterranean games. The response from the palace is that the King is unable to undertake political negotiations, that is up to the Government and is part of the constitution.
Again I think it would have more sensitive to make it clear that political negotiations were off the agenda but meet with the Catalan President to have informal talks about whatever.

An announcement has also been made that presidents Pedro Sanchez and Kim Torra will meet on July 9th.
Torra wants to do two things, put over the Catalan view and also ask the King to apologise for his statements in his speech of 3 Oct that let down a lot of people. Or at the very least qualify them.
It's all very well for the Palace to say that the King cannot undertake political negotiations, but that is not the point of the meeting.
Also by siding totally with the PP stance the King effectively politicised his position, and that is how many see him here, a politicised King. How far that may be true is moot, but that is the view of many here.
 
Anecdote: I was cycling home from the market today, it's only a short ride, thinking about this, and just when I reckoned that Soraya would win and that she would be a lot worse than Mariano in relation to Catalunya then a bird crapped on my arm. I'm taking that as an augury.
See? That's where wearing your heart on your sleeve get's you. a bird shat on you. :lol:
 
Luckier than you think. They come in flocks here.

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Torra will be at the Mediterranean games which will be inaugurated by the King.
He had considered not going.

He will be present but has decided to cut links with the 'Casa del Rey' or the machine surrounding Felipe. So no going to acts where the King is present.

Government considers it will be a problem.
 
Spanish Justice has come up with two doozies in 48 hours.
The Manada rapists have been let out of preventive prison paying 6,000€ bond. They had been sentenced but were held while the case was up for review.
Reasons given were that they didn't have the resources to flee, and that the victim lived at 500 km distance.
Rather a lot of indignant people in the streets.

Compared to the lads in Altsasu who have been held for over a year while the prosecutor tries to ensure they are judged for terrorism.


Secondly Judge Larena, well known for her affinity to the PP and her favourable judgements, was given the Castor case. This clusterintercourse about the gas drilling platform that was causing earthquakes and which the PP with indecent haste paid the speculators 1,300,000€ in compensation. A figure which would about heal the gap in pension funds which the PP appropriated.
The case has been filed with no blame attached to speculators or government.

Doesn't give the impression of fair justice at all.
 
Last night the Mediterranean games were inaugurated in Tarragona.

In attendance the King, PM Sanchez, PM Torra.

Before the inauguration Torra was there to greet the King, they shook hands and Torra presented him with a document about 1 Oct, the idea being to express the disquiet felt by many here over the King's attitude to the events.
The King accepted it but his face showed he wasn't happy.

During the opening ceremony there were both applauses and whistles for the monarch, especially when he spoke.
Sanchez and Torra sat next to each other and engaged in a friendly conversation.

Torra also declared, though not in the games as far as I am aware, that the Generalitat will not send representatives to events where the King is present until there are some words for those that received a smacking on the day.

Where this will lead I don't know but I get the impression that the King is unlikely to rectify, though I would be pleased if he did something to close the gap.
It highlights the separation of views and that the so far refusal to listen has lead to such a separation.
 
@Civiliam

With reference to the above post the attitude of the Madrid media,
el Mundo ran an article that says, "Torra declara guerra al Rey y el gobierno mira a otro lado"
-Torra declares war on the King and the Government looks the other way.

That says two things to me, firstly that Sanchez will have the press against him in pretty much all he does, because he wasn't looking the other way he was trying to reduce tension. Government declarations said that it will be a problem for the Generalitat.
Secondly that El Mundo wants to raise the tone and continue the language of confrontation, when now is precisely when the tone needs to be lowered.
Because that wasn't a declaration of war it was an expression of disquiet and Torra would like the head of state implicated as a fair mediator if necessary, which is impossible if those words of 3 Oct stand as they are.

I have argued that there is the element that cannot accept concessions, and that any sign of such will create a furor in certain quarters. Sanchez was being responsible by having a cordial conversation, and already that element is kicking up.
Not a good sign.

Torra declara la guerra al Rey mientras el Gobierno mira a otro lado
 
Local poll shows support for Puigdemont falling slightly.
Understandable as he designed the Torra government with confrontation with Rajoy in mind.
Sanchez has cut that from under him.

ERC seem more realistic in that they want to get the prisoners out and work towards achieving a social majority in favour of independence that cannot be ignored. Meanwhile Puigdemont seems to have no plan B, something that undercut him before.

Torra has a meeting with Sanchez coming up, he will put forward the concept of auto-determination which Sanchez cannot agree to. But other things have to be discussed as well and lets see what transpires.

The worry here is that despite fine words Sanchez will not actually change much in the core discourse towards Catalunya. It is understood that he has little room to manoeuvre and that there needs to be a more patient attitude from here, but we need to see his true colours fairly soon.
 
Battle for the leadership of the PP takes shape, and this may well define politics here for some time.

Cospodal had a major go at the Catalans saying that 155 should have been used sooner and that TV3 should have been intervened as it is an instrument for promoting hate.
So that's her card.
(There are other tv channels that are heavier-handed but in the opposite direction. A couple of commercial channels are totally anti in everything.TV3 does strive to be fair.)

Soraya's card is anti-Sanchez and she had a go at PSOE saying that they need to get Sanchez out ASAP so that he will not dismantle all the gains the Spanish have made with such an effort. The socialists always ruin Spain.
- Rich coming from a government that struggled to get us to a position that has only just got us back to pre-financial crisis days, and in many ways has left us worse off still.

Both of the above have been implicated in the government's corruption scandals and what the PP need is a clean out.
 
This will be defended.

The bridge on the initial photo is Besalu, 14 km from where I live. It is already well defended thank you.
By Catalans.

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@Hasdrubal.
And your point? That Spain is a beautiful place? It is.
That it is worth defending? It is.

But what are you defending against? If one day Catalunya does achieve independence Spain will not disintegrate, it would simply adjust borders. It would still be a beautiful place, all those animals you show were there before Spain existed and hopefully will be there long after mankind grows up and stops squabbling over lines on the ground.

Define defending? Imposition of police and tanks on people who belong to the Spanish State only by conquest?

Don't you realise that when you come out with threats like 'this will be defended' you cause precisely the conditions in which people like me become independentistes. Why should we want to stay in a State that can only threaten and impose its will by force?

Years ago my daughter said that if Spain had treated us like brothers we would not want to leave. But they didn't. And that is the whole problem.
 

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