Catalan Independence? Democracy dies in Spain.

As a basis for nrgotiation it isn't a bad start-line from the government POV. It's a hell of a lot more on offer and far more open than the big fat zero that Rajoy ever gave.
Problem is that reasonable as it may seem and whatever agreement might be reached he still has to convince Spanish voters to accept what will be seen as concessions, and which might have been easier accepted before. It will be seen by many as getting a reward for thier attempts at secession, and therefore inacceptable.
Also Susanna Diaz in Andalusia is saying that she will not countenance concessions, so he will have to convince half his own party and voters.
Then he has to convince the Catalans as well.

As to the points, Federal means different things to different people, and Sanchez concept to me is a very watered down version giving the absolute minimum, the form without much substance. A Catalan would look for something akin to Scotland. Yes obeying the constitution but also a reformed constitution that allows for national identity and wide-ranging autonomy. The Basques would also wanrt to explore that road and we may finally get an ally if this path is adopted.

2.+3 +4 Would fit in with the above, recognising that Catalunya has a National Identity (as well as the Basques) would be a necessity nowadays, rather than the, to my mind outdated, idea of a homogenous Spain. How acceptable or even understandable that would be to parts of Spain would be I have my doubts. The concept of the one Spain and its unbreakable unity are deeply ingrained.
Also that Catalunya disposes of more of the income it generates would also be a necessity, and the freedom to distribute it as seen fit. It's not the concept of Spain robs us, but certainly that a high income generating area receives below average investment is neither economically nor socially wise.

5. Language needs protection, the concept that you can't speak Spanish here is simply not true, and especially in the last few years with a lot of S.American immigration then i hear far more Spanish than I ever did here. Any agreement would have to recognise the need for Catalan to form the principle spine of the educational system which has been remarkably successful in integrating the following generations.

6. Could be a problem. The referendum is the principal demand. Sanchez politically cannot accede to that in this political climate, which is understandable but unless there is some form of consultation the situation will remain unclear and therefore unsolvable. Far better a Scottish-Quebecois type vote which the Spanish work to win or demand at least a 60% win to commence negotations
Nobody could ever confuse you chosen nom-de-plume with the size of your posts.

Sheesh!
 
Nobody could ever confuse you chosen nom-de-plume with the size of your posts.

Sheesh!
Sorry forgot there are RMP on here.
Spain new government.
Proposals for Catalunya better than before but not perfect.
Catalan government wants to talk but still aims for independence sometime.

There.
 
Seriously if I post too much then tell me and I'll stop.

It's a complex subject that needs more than a few lines to explain, and as a teacher I know we tend to ramble. It takes me time to do this as I type two-fingered, so if I'm not informing an audience I'll take a bow.
 
Yesterday Iñaki Urgangarin the king's brother in law was sentenced to over five years in prison.
Also the GC went into another Catalan office to look for stuff related to 1 Oct.
This is the fourth time in recent months that the judicial system has managed to coincide a negative judgement with an action in Catalunya to counterbalance the news. Not only is it becoming ineffective it is also boring.
As PdeCat spokeswoman said, "enough is enough."
 
Seriously if I post too much then tell me and I'll stop.

It's a complex subject that needs more than a few lines to explain, and as a teacher I know we tend to ramble. It takes me time to do this as I type two-fingered, so if I'm not informing an audience I'll take a bow.
I'm sure that what you say in your posts is considered and worthwhile. However, the computer display screen is not a good medium for acre upon acre of unbroken text. It is very unforgiving on the eye.

I would suggest that what may work in hard copy can be somewhat migraine-inducing on an electronic screen. There is a very real possibility that your lengthier efforts might remain unread for this reason.
 
I agree that some of the posts may be somewhat 'migraine-inducing on an electronic screen' but it is a complex and evolving situation that requires some fairly lengthy posts to highlight or clarify events.

Additionally links to video clips and other more eye pleasing forms of media are not available because they are in Spanish or Catalan, leaving `english text as the only medium for this forum.

Dwarf, despite his fervent support for the independentists cause is resisting temptation to leave sensationalist 'gutter press' comments without explanations, that in itself requires a minimum of text, difficult balance between soporific and uninformative.

Agreed that that a lot of punters maybe switching off at the prospect reading long political commentaries, thus loosing the message, the topic itself is probably avoided by most.

I feel a new film being born 'Carry on Dwarf'.
 
Yesterday GC went into the Town Halls of Girona and two adjacent towns looking for evidence that Girona waterboard misused funds for a project.
This is denied by the mayoress who also denounced the media show as totally unnecessary.

Thing is that this could affect previous mayors including, guess who, Carles Puigdemont. With his hearing in Berlin pending any evidence of misuse of money to get him into spanish clutches is welcomed. Even if there is no evidence or false evidence then planting doubt in the German Magistrates eyes is always worthwhile. Who says Judges don't play politics?
 
Agreed that that a lot of punters maybe switching off at the prospect reading long political commentaries, thus loosing the message, the topic itself is probably avoided by most.
I know that the vast majority of arrsers will avoid this as not being of interest. But if there is still interest among a few, and that's the question, then I'll post.
If not then I'll back off. Thing is that this isn't over yet by a long chalk, and recently quite a lot has been happening, so I've posted a fair bit, this will likely drop off as things stabilise a bit.
But now the initial crisis and smacking around is over it won't be interesting for most. This will continue to play for what will likely be years.
Not exciting to people outside but very important to us here.
 
I know that the vast majority of arrsers will avoid this as not being of interest. But if there is still interest among a few, and that's the question, then I'll post.
If not then I'll back off. Thing is that this isn't over yet by a long chalk, and recently quite a lot has been happening, so I've posted a fair bit, this will likely drop off as things stabilise a bit.
But now the initial crisis and smacking around is over it won't be interesting for most. This will continue to play for what will likely be years.
Not exciting to people outside but very important to us here.
And very helpful for people like me who's grasp of Catalan is less than adequate
 
OK. Briefer format:

Torrent Speaker of the Catalan Parliament is taking Llarenas and three other judges to court over, illegal detention of the prisoners allied to vulneration of their rights and

Comment by a Catalan legal eagle that the position of the prisoners is looking more like an anticipated sentence than preventive prison.
I've thought that for sometime as Llarenas decided long ago.

Government and Llarenas clashed as there has been a demand for the prisoners to be moved to Catalan jails to facilitate family visits, especially as the motive is only preventive prison.
Government said it was up to the judge, then Llarenas pointed out that it was a political decision as to where they are kept, not his. New minister then hedged by saying it didn't make sense to send them a distance if they were then required to appear in court by the judge, so back on the trucks.
Llarenas finished by saying that the investigations were just about wrapped up anyway.

Gives me the impression that they were essentially wrapped up some time ago but that he has been looking for that something extra for his case. Meanwhile he might as well stretch it out and keep these terrible delinquents behind bars.
 
Something that caught the eye this weekend.

Rivera of Cs is seriously putting forward the idea that to have a representation in Parliament a party should have to achieve at least 3% of the popular vote.

His idea is that this way a minor party whose votes may be vital in a close situation can't hold the country to ransome.

However, not only would that exclude the Basque parties and Catalan parties but minor parties like Canary Islands would also lose their votes.

It does seem that in some people the idea of democracy has failed to take root, either that or they consider that it is only for those who think like them.

Yet it also fails to take into account that both Cs and Podemos changed the face of Spanish politics. prior to them there were only the two major parties usually with a working majority and no need to pact. Now there is necessity to make agreements and take into account the other's POV, something that is anathema to Rivera.
 
The new government has been talking about dialogue and sitting down with the Catalans. The Generalitat has also said they want to sit down with the government. Yet apart from this no date has been set, and apparently it will have to wait until the government talks to the Basques first. Interesting.

As a start point the government has talked about using the Statute of 2010 as a negotiating point. Yet it was pointed out that we have a president in exile only to go back to 2010 is not realistic.

Sanchez and Co are also talking about 'disinflating Catalunya' (better to say calming the situation perhaps, but I like the word). While they are correct, they fail to mention that you also have to 'disinflate' Spanish society in respect to Catalunya. (Enric Juliana).

It's very valid that point, you can't just expect one side to calm down and act reasonably if the other refuses to do so. Madrid has stirred a lot of things all over the place, so now Sanchez will have his work cut out.
 
How far is this all a new ball game?

Torra is a president dedicated to the Republic and placed to combat the total deafness and intransigence of Madrid. How far he is flexible enough to do three things will be important.
1. Listen and adapt to new circumstances where people listen.
2. Realise that the dance has changed and a new slow patient one is being played.
3. Be prepared to act against Puigdemont if necessary, as Puigdemont is getting of of touch with the street, despite what he believes.

Sanchez is young and wants to make changes. But he is severely limited by conservative elements in his own party, his own dedication to maintaining Spain as it is more or less, and the previous actions of the PP which have set up a position whereby he cannot make agreements with Catalunya easily without the Madrid-based media kicking up a fuss.

Sanchez wants to talk, Torra wants a Republic. Both have to concede somewhere, but also the dyed-in-the-wool separatists and the 'A por ellos' brigade also have to accept that concessions are required. Not easy.
 
What's evident is that the new Spanish and Catalan Governments have made no progress in establishing grounds for negotiation, there is little middle ground between' independence' and no 'independence', when Catalans already have big chunk of autonomy.

Maybe financial concessions would at least temporarily calm things down. Catalans in Spain are regarded shrewd business people, their financiers would have some influence on the Catalan Government if they received serious investment in the region.

Having said that there must be a considerable proportion of separatists that have reached the point of no return. 'Sod the expense, lets get independence and deal with other matters as they arrive.'

Dropping all charges against Catalan politicians has got to be fundamental to the Catalans, I don't know how this could be achieved since its in the hands of the judiciary.

Meanwhile the King and Queen of Spain have been barred from officiating an arts prize ceremony in a particular establishment in Girona. An alternative location has been found.
The King unwisely made a harsh comments against the separatists and made no effort to condemn the violence seen during the Catalan independence referendum.

He is King of Spain and that includes Catalans regardless of political affiliations, opportunity missed to promote the Spanish monarchy as independent caring institution.

His Dad made a significant contribution to democracy in Spain calling on the army to remain in barracks when some extreme Civil Guards attempted a coup de e'tat. I mention this because if it had been successful, there would little chance of autonomy in Cataluna, more likely serious probably violent rebellion. (Not just Cataluna either).

King Orders army to crush coup
 
What's evident is that the new Spanish and Catalan Governments have made no progress in establishing grounds for negotiation, there is little middle ground between' independence' and no 'independence', when Catalans already have big chunk of autonomy.
People keep shaking their heads about this autonomy thing. Yes there is a lot of autonomy, but it isn't about autonomy it's principally about national identity.

Maybe financial concessions would at least temporarily calm things down. Catalans in Spain are regarded shrewd business people, their financiers would have some influence on the Catalan Government if they received serious investment in the region.

Having said that there must be a considerable proportion of separatists that have reached the point of no return. 'Sod the expense, lets get independence and deal with other matters as they arrive.'
Money has always been only a symptom, but it would show that the government is serious about getting the Catalans onside. Whereas hitherto it has all been about Madrid showing no interest in making changes or listening when a couple of million people say they aren't happy with the situation.
Trouble is you make concessions PP/Cs shout foul.
Also as you say most independentistes won't be bought off, not just now but right from the start. It's not about money.
Dropping all charges against Catalan politicians has got to be fundamental to the Catalans, I don't know how this could be achieved since its in the hands of the judiciary.
Can you honestly see that being acceptable in Spain to a large part of the voters?
It is fundamental, and not just because the case has been badly handled and on many grounds is specious. But you won't convince the 'A por ellos brigade' of that. The Madrid press will kick up should that happen. How many votes is it worth? Sanchez is looking to be re-elected and he needs to keep his core voters on his side.

Meanwhile the King and Queen of Spain have been barred from officiating an arts prize ceremony in a particular establishment in Girona. An alternative location has been found.
The King unwisely made a harsh comments against the separatists and made no effort to condemn the violence seen during the Catalan independence referendum.

He is King of Spain and that includes Catalans regardless of political affiliations, opportunity missed to promote the Spanish monarchy as independent caring institution.
He isn't flavour of the month here at all. Many Catalans were republican anyway, he just managed to make the best case for republicanism possible with his ham-fisted speeches.
Torra will meet him but will also ask for an apology. That should be fun to hear.
His Dad made a significant contribution to democracy in Spain calling on the army to remain in barracks when some extreme Civil Guards attempted a coup de e'tat. I mention this because if it had been successful, there would little chance of autonomy in Cataluna, more likely serious probably violent rebellion. (Not just Cataluna either).

King Orders army to crush coup
People here recognise that. Shame the son blew all that goodwill. People actually listened to his speech on 3 Oct hoping for a bit of sense and support. He could have offered any number of olive branches.
Being a Royalist in the British sense I have always defended the institution of the Spanish Monarchy for what it is,does and represents. That stopped after his speech.
 
'Can you honestly see that being acceptable in Spain to a large part of the voters?'

Certainly wouldn't bet my house on it, but stranger alliances have been brokered when people get weary of the endless political fighting with no prospect of a solution. Different situation, but Northern Ireland's fragile peace comes to mind.

My opinion, for what its worth, is that the previous Spanish Government made an error when they incarcerated the Catalan leaders, they could have stopped them from governing without going that far. As it is, they made many spaniards uncomfortable with that action and gave the Catalans separatists another rallying cause.

For me, what the current Government has in mind remains a bit of a mystery we shall see when the talks between the Presidents of Spain and Cataluna take place.

I'm not a fan of hereditary institutions but have to say HM the Queen has done an admirable job as representative of the UK and I cannot think of a better system, albeit with some changes. King Felipe has only four years experience, hopefully he will take on board what has happened and get a Catalan advisor, think he's due a hard time in Cataluna this week.

A question for you Dwarf, what makes some Catalans fiercely pro-indepence and others anti?
 
Sanchez and Torra have agreed a meeting for early July. See where it goes. Both have limited space to manoeuvre, Sanchez because he has too many people watching him like hawks for any concessions. Torra because he has committed to the mandate of 1 Oct and can't move too far from Puigdemont's line. Pity as he could make a lot of the new position he is in.

Sanchez has stated that he wishes to see out the term with elections in two years. So I think he will try to change thinking and policy over a range of issues to allow his government to have a positive effect and pick up votes from where he is today. Also if he does a reasonable job then the opposition within his party will have less ammunition to give him the heave-ho.

But to do this he cannot be seen to be soft on Catalunya. He has stated that he sees it as reasonable that when Llarenas has finished investigating the prisoners that they be transferred to prisons in Catalunya closer to their families. Even that may cast him as being an appeaser.

I don't envy the man, and actually hope he manages to do a good job because Spain needs a decent PM after the last two disasters.
 
Battle for the PP leadership is open with a number of candidates.
Best placed candidate Feijoo of Galicia retired which is a shame.

Best of the rest in my view is Jose Garcia-Margallo, ex-foreign minister, intelligent and pragmatic, less likely to allow heart/party dogma to rule his head.

Well positioned is the Witch Queen Soraya who if she gets in will compete with Rivera as to who can be the most nationalistic and patriotic.

Whoever gets it is obviously of vital importance to Catalunya.
 
'Can you honestly see that being acceptable in Spain to a large part of the voters?'

Certainly wouldn't bet my house on it, but stranger alliances have been brokered when people get weary of the endless political fighting with no prospect of a solution. Different situation, but Northern Ireland's fragile peace comes to mind.
Are people in Spain weary of it? Certainly in Catalunya we are sick of the same old stuff with no progress but prepared to keep on.
But there are interests on both sides for whom continued conflict is useful.


I'm not a fan of hereditary institutions but have to say HM the Queen has done an admirable job as representative of the UK and I cannot think of a better system, albeit with some changes. King Felipe has only four years experience, hopefully he will take on board what has happened and get a Catalan advisor, think he's due a hard time in Cataluna this week.
Ithink he will see he could have done things better.

A question for you Dwarf, what makes some Catalans fiercely pro-indepence and others anti?

Oh Christ! To answer that needs about six of my tomes. Briefly why are some Scots fiercely pro and others anti? That will give you a clue.

History is the short answer. Catalans have always wanted to be Catalans, and when that is either denied to them, or subordinated to a greater Spanish nationalism then that gives a stimulus to separation.
A different culture, a different language, a different ethic to the rest of the Spanish State, maybe not apparent to outsiders, all sheep are sheep, but clear here. National identity is the main stimulus, Catalans making decisions for Catalans.
Scotland, Wales and NI all have their identity, Catalans are denied this by a centralism that wants to impose certain ideas in common even against the wills of those who see themselves as different. The four nations of the UK have a unifying factor in that they all speak the same language in the main. Not all Welsh speak Welsh in streets or home. Catalans and Basques do have their languages which is part of their identity which is not shared by the rest of the state.

Yet some Catalans do oppose independence because they identify with the State, though I wager that many would happily sign up to a recognised Catalan national identity within that State. For them and for a variety of reasons they will see unity as better.
Also many of the opponents of Catalan independence here are not Catalans as such but reside here. Spanish from the rest of Spain who don't understand the Catalan identity or who consider it un-Spanish, which it is.
Many Cs voters are also S. American residents who also tend towards the nationalistic side.

Difficult to answer without volumes, but any cause like this will have exponents and opponents of differing intensity. The PP tactics of refusing to move from the status quo and its repressive style responses have simply hardened a lot of people and this is probably the biggest factor.
A few years ago this could have been addressed with far less polarising people.
 
Thanks for your reply, I trust its not taking too much of your drinking time, however there are two sides to the story and for the outsiders its crucial to understand the problem before an informed stance can be taken.
Your pro-independence views are clear, no hidden agenda, but not being 'Catalan' enables you to take a more pragmatic view of what is achievable in the current political climate.
The hope is that some sort of solution can be fudged (maybe federalism), since as it stands, independence is worrying scenario mainly because of the unknown reaction of the Spanish government and wider consequences.

I take your point about historical, cultural, language being a source of a national identity steering the region on a course to full independence, the attempt to suppress that Catalan identity for many years is probably the largest 'separatist' recruiter.

There are Catalans who are immensely proud of all of the above yet still regard being Catalan and Spanish as perfectly compatible, albeit they would probably like to deepen the autonomy. No idea what proportion of the population that would be, a quick google an article in 'EL Mundo' 23 FEB. 2018 shows the % for independence dropping (in RED). I don't know the reliability got these figures or how it may have changed since latest events.


¿Quiere que Cataluña se convierta en un estado independiente?
En porcentaje
 

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