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Catalan Independence? Democracy dies in Spain.

The problem is in a word, escalation. Nobody I know here wants the birth of a nation via blood, and they aren't particularly anti-Spain, though anti-institutions is certainly true.
The hope and belief was that through negotiation something could be achieved, and that cordial relations could be maintained. Naive? Certainly given hindsight. But the hope was there that Spain had evolved enough in democratic terms to allow for some form of negotiation. That didn't survive the first hour of 1 Oct.

The Catalans know (and knew before 1 Oct) that violence would simply lead to greater violence and that relations would be ruined. To an extent that has happened, and though not ruined certainly soured.
That they want this to be sorted peacefully is uppermost in people's minds.
Yet recently watching the litany of arrests and statements coming from Madrid, and especially with the intentions over language and education, my partner surprised me. She isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer by any means, sometimes finds it difficult to cut butter, but she is coming round to the idea that 'this won't end till we take to the streets.'

I really have no idea how widespread that idea might be, it might just be her. But I think that if Madrid hadn't been halted by the CT over education, (the first thing they have give Catalunya's way in years) then that would have been a potential reason for people to have considered action on the streets.

@Skylog may have a point, unless there is some form of action then further progress towards a proposed independence could be difficult.
Yet here we know that it would only lead to heavier repression and the confirmation of Catalunya as a colony. Not many people would be happy with that.

It may well be that the independentistes will have to wait for the demographic change to achieve their majority, though I think there is stil distance in this at the moment. But better a longer time and peacefully than short sharp and nasty.
 
Things in the news.

Arco is an exhibition in Madrid of various arty stuff. (Art as in luvvie stuff not Dropshorts.) There was a wall covered in representations of contemporary political prisoners in Spain. It has been taken down, and a row is boiling up about freedom of expression, especially after the jailing of a rapper for three and a half years for apparently insulting the King and praising terrorism.
You can agree or disagree with what they say or show, but the right to do so surely is democratic. Censorship is not.

De Los Cobos over the investigation into Mossos Boss Trapero says that the Mossos' action on 1 Oct was a 'con'. This on the same day that AI says that on the 1 Oct there was excessive violence used against peaceful demonstrators.
I'm not betting that Trapero won't receive some form of punishment for not setting his lads onto the demonstrators.

Debate over whether Anna Gabriel can be extradited. The Swiss say no if it's for political reasons. The Spanish are considering saying that it is simply for non-appearance at court.
 
Apropos of nothing, but it made me laugh. Yesterday a student who is a rowing coach, brought me a piece of work.
It contained the following lines:

And working with excitement, effort and confidence together with athletes and workmates we achieve difficult autonomous, national and international trophies.

So far, so good, but presentation is everything. His handwriting isn't the best and in the words working and workmates the o looks like an a and the r looks like an n.

Now make the substitution and reread. :-D
 
Wrong again.
Has the Scot indi referendum gone the other way Scotland would now be independent.
It just depends on whether your next in the chain is decent or EU.
London is not Madrid, the King of Spain is not the Queen and Cameron is not Rajoy (or any other Spanish prime minister). It depends on who is the oppressor. If you get caught cheating some wives will forgive and accept you have needs, some other wives will divorce immediately and try to steal as much money as possible. Spain has shown its true colours and they're not the rainbow colours of peace. They don't even allow a referendum. Spain's tweet to Catalans is ' you will never go independent peacefully'.
 
Nobody I know here wants the birth of a nation via blood,
Most breakaway nations were born with at least some resistance. Without any trouble made by Catalans, why should Spain give in? Only in the name of fairness and justice but Spain has shown they're not following these principles.
The hope and belief was that through negotiation something could be achieved, and that cordial relations could be maintained. Naive? Certainly given hindsight. But the hope was there that Spain had evolved enough in democratic terms to allow for some form of negotiation. That didn't survive the first hour of 1 Oct.
Catalans tried the peaceful way. It didn't work and Spain proved it doesn't care about democracy or self determination. The rest of the world said they don't care. The only way left is resistance and Catalans must go for it if they want it because nobody else is lifting a finger. If they claim independence and resist the military occupation by Spain until it becomes too expensive for Madrid then the rest of the world will recognise Catalonia.

The Catalans know (and knew before 1 Oct) that violence would simply lead to greater violence and that relations would be ruined.
It depends how much Madrid is ready to mess with civilians. Catalans haven't tested Madrid's will yet. How many violent clashes brodcasted on international news would Spain accept before giving in? How many critics and sanctions from the EU and the USA for breaking human rights would Spain accept before recognising independence? Catalans don't know it. Being the year 2018 I think it wouldn't take many clashes
she is coming round to the idea that 'this won't end till we take to the streets.'
It's a fact not an opinion. I don't see why Spain should change its behaviour. They proved they don't agree on giving independence, without troubles they're not changing position. They won't transform into Cameron

Yet here we know that it would only lead to heavier repression and the confirmation of Catalunya as a colony. Not many people would be happy with that.
No pain no gain. If Catalans are fine with staying with the current rule then be it. Peace and Spanish rule. If they want independence they must go for it.
It may well be that the independentistes will have to wait for the demographic change to achieve their majority, though I think there is stil distance in this at the moment. But better a longer time and peacefully than short sharp and nasty.
I'm not expert of Cataln demography but I guess Spain will try to place some unionists in their favour. In the long term politics change but it's a long term. If Catalans want independence in their life span they can't get it without resisting because Spain doesn't agree.
 

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