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Catalan Independence? Democracy dies in Spain.

Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by Dwarf, Jan 12, 2014.

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  1. What are you on about? 1headscratch.gif
     
  2. 43% plus 15% of stolen ballotts by the Guard Civil, plus people who didn't vote because they were scared. A conservative 70% would have voted in peaceful conditions and the vast majority are for leave

    It takes a if to make a then

    Yes he joined in when his interest matched, his contribution against IS and in general on Islamic terrorism is relevant.

    There must be a trigger to make the EU collapse. Catalunya can be the trigger to end this dictatorial and undemocratic superstate. If the UK doesn't take this chance then it won't have the right to complain when the strong EU will force expensive measures on the British people
     
  3. Yes but it took one piece of dominos to start the chain reaction.
     
  4. It's the voice circulating in trading rooms. Most Europeans want the ECB and the EU to impoverish the UK. The European Central Bank has almost the same firepower as the Federal Reserve, they can put the UK on its knees if they want to.
     
  5. Some people didn’t vote as they didn’t want to. Some were intimidated. Some were undoubtedly not going to vote as it was illegal under Spanish law.

    Until there’s a legal referendum under international observation it doesn’t matter what the vote was. Just like Crimea
    I’m sure that makes sense to you
    So late and not against IS initially
    :) really? Britain assisting Catalunya will bring down the EU? How?

    Much better to sit on the sides and poke the EU (and Spain) with a long stick.
     
  6. It was a whole host of reasons, not least of which is ‘communism is cr@p’
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  7. Pudjemont declares the independence, Rajoy sends tanks then the world can't be indifferent. If at least some people oppose the tanks Spain would be sanctioned and expelled from the EU. I expect the use of force would last less than the Turkey one and the 1991 one in Moscow
     
  8. There can't be a legal referendum. It only legal moves are recognised then the USA or Brazil wouldn't exist

    It means you must take the chance if you want the EU to break up. If you prefer a powerful EU then do nothing

    So Russia's intervention against Islamic terrorism is not useful?

    It could, if Spain sends tanks and Catalans oppose them Spain will be expelled from the EU. It's one of the main members and it also has the Euro. This is the biggest chance in years to make the EU fall apart
     
  9. There can't be a legal referendum. It only legal moves are recognised then the USA or Brazil wouldn't exist

    It means you must take the chance if you want the EU to break up. If you prefer a powerful EU then do nothing

    So Russia's intervention against Islamic terrorism is not useful?

    It could, if Spain sends tanks and Catalans oppose them Spain will be expelled from the EU. It's one of the main members and it also has the Euro. This is the biggest chance in years to make the EU fall apart
     
  10. You may not have noticed but this is the second half of the second decade of the 21st Century
    What if you’re ambivalent about the EU?
    When it occured, of course
    I might be ambivalent about the EU and you’re on about ‘if’s’ again
     
  11. While an interesting theory...

    If you're looking for a bat to beat the EU with, one that I suspect is a much bigger concern. Spain, and thus Catalonia, both use the Euro.
    Lets side step the whole issue of the Catalan's using the Euro after declaring UDI. As I have no idea what will happen there.
    To be honest I have little idea on the next part, but I can see it being an issue. If Catalan bails it owns 5% of the Spanish Debt, and would become unsustainable as a country due to the debt (which, IIRC would be about 35% of Catalan's GDP). Meaning that 5% of the Spanish debt is now never going to be paid. Equally a chunk of Spain's GDP just walked out the door, which in turn raises the amount of debt as a % of Spain's GDP, and she was already looking pretty shaky on that regard, or so ARRSE says.

    So there's lots of big financial problems that are possible here, and I'm not entirely sure anyone knows what will happen? Has there been a precedent for this as an example? Is there an ARRSE expert on it?
     
  12. From the news.

    In an interview with French Tv the Foreign Minister said that the Government did not want to use force, but that it was not down to them, it was down to the Catalans.

    In other words they have decided on the use of force, and it will be used if the Catalans vote independence. Hardly new but interesting confirmation.
    Yet it is the Spanish government that has elected to use force/coercion as their option when others are available. Putting the blame for use of force on the Catalans is very sanctimonious I believe.

    Secondly the PP have suggested they will illegalise pro-independence parties. This in the country where the Falange is legal.
    Interesting take on democracy.
     
  13. It's worth looking at article 155 which everyone is talking about.

    If an Autonomous Community does not comply with the obligations imposed by the Constitution or other laws or acts in a way that seriously undermines the general interest of Spain, the Government, after making a request to the President of the Autonomous Community and, in the case of not being attended to, with the approval by an absolute majority of the Senate, may take the necessary measures to oblige the latter to comply with those obligations or to protect said general interest.

    For the execution of the measures foreseen in the previous section, the Government may give instructions to all the authorities of the Autonomous Communities.


    In other words there are no specific guidelines or limits placed on the actions that the government deems necessary. All and any action could be classed as necessary.

    When discussing this at a lunch yesterday and on reading out the text of the article a friend simply said "Dictadura" - dictatorship, which is what that article allows.

    There was a bit of doom and gloom among the people who remembered not having Catalan permitted in the streets, nor schools, nor on tv. They foresee a return to an imposition of 'spanification' with, as mentioned in the post above, certain political parties prohibited allowing only those who agree with Madrid to operate, school curriculum in Spanish and dictated by Madrid.
    A return to the days just like in Franco's time in fact.

    Whether it goes that far or not is moot, I don't know how far this government will go, but 155 allows for any and all measures that they wish to use. Given that the PP has a majority in the Senate then that allows them total free reign.

    Original Spanish below.




    1. Si una Comunidad Autónoma no cumpliere las obligaciones que la Constitución u otras leyes le impongan, o actuare de forma que atente gravemente al interés general de España, el Gobierno, previo requerimiento al Presidente de la Comunidad Autónoma y, en el caso de no ser atendido, con la aprobación por mayoría absoluta del Senado, podrá adoptar las medidas necesarias para obligar a aquélla al cumplimiento forzoso de dichas obligaciones o para la protección del mencionado interés general.
    2. Para la ejecución de las medidas previstas en el apartado anterior, el Gobierno podrá dar instrucciones a todas las autoridades de las Comunidades Autónomas.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  14. 1. The head of the Catalan police will be arrested Monday in Madrid for disobedience and sedition.

    2. The Catalan government will officially reaffirm the declaration of independence.

    3. On Friday the Spanish government will take control of the Catalan police and the budgets of the Catalan government.

    4. The following week the Catalan government and the Bureau of the Catalan Parliament will be called to declare in Barcelona for disobedience, embezzlement and sedition.

    5. If they attend, they will be prosecuted and placed on parole. If they declare themselves in absentia, they will be searched and captured and detained.

    6. In one way or another the Catalan parliament will be dissolved and elections will be held in late November early December.

    7. The 'Cortes' will have made a decision on future steps.


    if this is not complete, Spanish government will have surrendered along the way and Spain will risk a future civil war (4th in 200 years).
     
  15. Allies press Catalan leader to declare full independence, ignore Madrid deadlines
    The far left doing some agitating?
     
    • Like Like x 1