Catalan Independence? Democracy dies in Spain.

Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by Dwarf, Jan 12, 2014.

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  1. Google throws up little information about this chap and the likelihood of his having unreformed authoritarian tendencies.

    Diego Pérez de los Cobos Orihuel — Wikipédia shows him to have been born in 1964.

    So at the time of the 1981 coup attempt he would have been a callow youth of 17 ?

    If we assume that he entered the GC in 1982 at age 18, its probable that the interests of reconciliation after Franco's death, will have meant that he would have come into contact with, or influenced by, members of that body who looked fondly on the Franco years. But nearly 40 years on, and having been subject to promotion reviews, is it really likely that this chap is the confirmed Neo Falangist that it seems he is starting to be presented as ?

    From a detached point of view, it seems the only saleable commodity that the Catalans yet have outside of Spain, is the police brutality angle ?

    Could it be possible that the GC commander story is being boosted for propaganda purposes ?
  2. I do, but unless there is a point to be made then I think that deep arguments can detract from the main flow of the thread.
    I have just looked quickly over that and there are a couple of things I will, for personal interest, follow up so thank you for posting that.

    For arrsers who don't read Castellano then it talks essentially about population mix and spread, which in two countries with a common border/government then that has to be quite widespread.

    Hasdrubal amigo, I understand that very well, I come from Newcastle with its mix of English and Scots influences, my maternal grandparents came from Scottish families, and Grandad was a Tyneside Scot during WW2 and they sent a bag-piper to his funeral, but my immediate family is English. I know how much it mixes, the UK is a veritable pot of English, Celtic, and Danish names just for a start.
    My surname is Catalan, and I have distant cousins here, yet I am British. I speak Catalan and Castellano and identify with Catalunya after 30 years here, so I know how things mix. It's what you feel now that is important, who you identify with, not what your surname is.

    But I will re-read that, gracias.
  3. Actually I take my hat off to the bloke in prison today for his total optimism.

    Claiming that as Catalunya is independent Spanish law does not apply and under habeas corpus he should now be released.

    I can't see it flying but you have to admire him for the attempt.
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  4. Homework done. Full marks. He may be reactionary today, he may not be, though I suggest the actions of the men under his command indicate which. The name has been known here for some time it's just I thought it might be relevant as to the appropriateness of what the government is claiming.
    There is still a reactionary faction in the Old Guard, dressed up nicely in some politicians, and if you could observe them in Parliament I think you would perhaps modify your stance a bit. I have argued that the institutions in Spain are 'continuist' maintaining the same pillars and often idealologies of the state as before.
    My Catalan friend quoted above expresses that in a much more vehement way.
    He may have mellowed, but don't forget the reviews are carried out by the same people who the system promotes and maintains, they do tend to protect and pass on like-minded people, as do our 'Old Boys Clubs'.

    Do we only have the brutality angle? Something to ponder. But it's importatnt to the people on the street. What comes next?

    That Catalans want a referendum is plain. With an immobile Government prepared to use force and an outside world indifferent your suggestions are welcome.
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  5. Wordsmith

    Wordsmith LE Book Reviewer

    It would be very difficult to show Russian involvement in the Catelonian situation. You might be able to trace their involvement in fake/slanted news, but a far as hacking into sensitive systems is concerned: much more difficult.

    For example, I use a private VPN service. It would be easy for me to make it look as if my IP address was in Russia. Similarly a Russian hacker could make it look as if they were coming from Mexico. Of someone from France could try and frame Russia by making it look as if their IP address emanated from there.

    Has someone hacked into a Catalonian or Spanish system? Very possibly - the hacker's biggest ally is human stupidity. I see daily examples of that. But proving it had happened, who was responsible and that the information had a material effect on events would be near impossible.

  6. Goatman

    Goatman LE Book Reviewer

    oops, sorry - no. Brotherton Lad's contention was that the Rabid Russkis had interfered in the British vote on EU.
  7. Brotherton Lad

    Brotherton Lad LE Reviewer

    Actually, my contention was why on earth do you think they didn't.
  8. Goatman

    Goatman LE Book Reviewer

    Neither The Guardian , Vanity Fair or the Daily Express have managed to convince me.

    It seems a reasonable possibility - you could convince me with something more than
    ' cos I said so' - even though it seemed to work for Tony Blair.
  9. Brotherton Lad

    Brotherton Lad LE Reviewer

    So we agree it's a reasonable possibility?
  10. About 20% to 30% never vote on any elections, plus 15% of votes were stolen by the Guard Civil using violence plus the many people who were scared to go to the polling stations

    Because if Spain sends the army and Catalans fight for their freedom, then Spain must be sanctioned and sent out of the EU. It would be the end of the EU

    It's not a separate matter, the EU level of strenght is vital to determine what kind of deals the UK can obtain. In this case the UK and Putin interests match, like on the war on Islamic terrorism and ISIS
  11. Why? I'm sure the Tories would be happy to witness the destruction and fail of the European Union.
  12. You really are pants at agitprop. Go back to your Lego. Less than 40% voted for independence ie 90% of 43%
    If, if and if. If you’re the best the Kremlin can get I pity them
    If only Putin had started fighting IS when we did. He turned up a year late and bombed the local civil war rebels not IS.

    If you sincerely believe the EU cannot deal with Brexit and an internal problem in Spain then frankly it should collapse tomorrow. Any single nation should be able to deal with a fairly large crisis and the country equivalent of a boundary dispute involving public order.
  13. What makes you think that?
  14. Perhaps Putin doesn't understand that this could trigger the explosion and end of the EU. If Spain has to send the army and Catalans fight for their country, the EU will have to expel Spain that is one of the main members. Then the domino effect of a useless and undemocratic EU will end the EU completely like the Eastern bloc did. Not taking this chance just because Spain didn't recognise Kosovo is a political error by Putin in my opinion
  15. CCCP. Eastern bloc went West as they were fed up with the Sovs.