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Catalan Independence? Democracy dies in Spain.

Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by Dwarf, Jan 12, 2014.

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  1. Some of that I agree with, but it's also a very Spanish viewpoint or highly Spanish influenced.
    Puigdemont didn't chicken out, he needed a breathing space to offer dialogue which was rejected.
    Ideas are in place for all those institutions though obviously they need time so UDI is seen as a negotiated process over time, the Spanish are reacting as they always do, and we thought they had changed a bit and that in 21st C Europe they would not act with force, that was the miscalculation.

    You missed one important point about trappings of state, the right to decide for yourselves. Just like Brexit.

    You keep mentioning 900 years of joint history, which is not strictly accurate. In 1137 the crown of Aragon was created by the marriage of Queen petronilla of Aragon and Ramon Berenguer 4th, Count of Barcelona.
    Catalunya acted independently as a partner in the union with its own laws and customs. It wasn't till the marriage of Ferdinand and Isabella in 1469 that brought Aragon and Castille together in a union, not a single country.
    Since then every attempt at Catalunya to protect its status has been defeated by the use of force. Spanish law was finally imposed, by force, after the 1714 defeat of Catalunya in the War of the Spanish Sucession.

    That there is a long history together only has meaning if both sides are content, there is no reason to keep a marriage together if one partner is unhappy.
     
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  2. ABC newspaper extremely 'traditional' and about as reliable as first model SA80.
    Often fan the flames with their reporting on things that are simply not true.
     
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  3. From Parliament yesterday to show what we are dealing with.

    When questioned about police action on 1 Oct, Rajoy said "We feel very proud of the action of the Police on 1 Oct."

    The Mayor of Barcelona, Ada Colau, had received a number of complaints about excessive police action including cases of sexual harrassment. She forwarded them for investigation.

    A democratic government would investigate the complaints and act if justified to reprimand the officers involved, and defend them if the complaint was found to be unproven.

    The PP reaction, Hernandez "That Ada Colau accuses the police of sexual harrassment is false and she should apologise."
    Just like that.

    The officer in charge of the operation Lt Col de Cobos is an interesting choice. On the attempted coup d'etat by Tejero in 1981 he presented himself at the Guardia Civil in falange uniform as a volunteer.
    Later as a Guardia Civil he was convicted of torture in the Urra case and condemned to four years in prison, later reduced by order of the Constitutional Tribunal, and partially exonerated by the Council of Ministers and given a full pardon by the PP government. He never went behind bars.

    ed to add a t to he
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
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  4. Not so sure, after Rajoy's ultimatum he tweeted

    "Demanes diàleg i et responen posant el 155 damunt la taula. Entesos."

    You ask for dialogue and they reply by putting the 155 on the table. Understood."

    (- Perhaps loud and clear would be a better translation of entesos.)

    There are three choices,
    1. Back down.
    2. Call elections.
    3. Activate UDI and say that Spanish law does not apply to Catalunya from that moment.

    I personally would go for 2, so he would get more, (or less) support and a bit more time because Spain knows that sympathy can build up over time for the underdog. But although it would not change the scenario he would at least know how much backing he has got.

    But knowing the 'Presi', that 'entesos' is a firming up of purpose.


    Ruling Catalunya by coercion is not a long term option, though it has worked up to now so why change, and in time, short or long, this will raise its head again. A Catalan MP in national parliament made the point that democracy works by consent, when it doesn't it ceases to be democracy.

    Catalans have been playing the long game since 1714, one day it will fall their way.

    ed cos I missed three words
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
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  5. Agreed totally, but you need your voice to be heard sometimes, hence referendum.

    If an authoritarian parent simply lays down the law and refuses to listen to a child, then one day the child will either rebel or want to leave home.
     
  6. My bold: the very essence of PP / Franquista ideology.
     
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  7. Quite agree but UDI wins very few friends, maybe some Russian client states and that's it. If you want independence (ie if the majority of those who have a say vote for an independent Catalunya), then you need friends. The best way (imo) is to get the EU to work for you in pressuring Madrid to at least offer a fig and have a referendum, even if it's a referendum on whether you should have a referendum. Maybe a meeting between Puigdemont and Merkel and/or Macron being the EU main players would be a start?

    You should obviously be aware that independence brings its own problems as well, for example there may be regions of Catalunya which will 'opt out' and want to remain a part of Spain.
     
  8. Don't disagree at all. However the nature of the Spanish government is the problem, and which cannot see that discrepancy with their point of view is not necessarily rebellion.
    Also they have done a good diplomatic job in the EU, and to paraphrase their Foreign Minister, called in a few favours and had to promise a fair few. The EU is extremely unlikely to pressure Madrid for anything except tickets for Real Madrid matches. Macron has come out firmly against and Dame Angela is only vacilliating a bit because she needs the Greens for a coalition and they are anti-violence.

    Maybe areas would opt out, then again some of Valencia is resolutely Catalan and the Balearic Islands may well opt in. Don't forget Perpignan, hence Macron's opposition.
     
  9. Antes NPI ahora si.

    Moltes gracies pel vincul company.
     
  10. Agreed, but as before there's more than one way to skin a cat and UDI does nobody any favours (other than feeling you've achieved 'something' but at what cost).
    And this is where the Regional govt needs to win friends and influence people. Unless the EU and their 'big players' see any reason to support a vote on a vote, they won't support it.
    I know. There's a lot of separatist movements throughout the EU as mentioned on the other thread.
     
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  11. This from a Catalan friend of mine who has more than 30 years experience in the police world.

    The first point is that as has been claimed on here that only a few NPs were out of control, and that is untrue, it was widespread amongst them and they went in with the 'A por ellos' or 'get them'. *
    Who can hit an old lady, who was sitting down doing nothing over the head, and laugh about it?
    Also the police are proud of their actions, the politicians are saying that they are proud of their police and many of the civil population are proud too.

    If it was only to confiscate the urns then there is no excuse for that, especially if they thought the the referendum was deactivated previously. (That the legal conditions didn't exist and that it had been declared non valid by the government.) Therefore the correct action is to do nothing. Moreover most of the urns were taken by the Mossos with zero violence.
    So one must question the real aims of the police action. The obvious answer is to sow fear and set a groundbase of fear over future possible actions, take control of Catalaunya and replace Catalan in TV, press, schools, police and close parliament or suspend pro-independence parties.

    Independence is not born from a political process it is born in the people and 155 won't stop the people claiming or wanting that independence.

    Catalans as has been said on here, and also denied, are completely different to the Spanish. Not better, not worse, but different. Not only in language but in culture, feelings and way of thinking. Moreover the Catalan is said to hate the Spanish, but you find the opposite is true in many cases, not all Spanish are hostile to Catalans, but there is a large proportion, because of the information they have manipulated by the Spanish state.


    He also points out if you make a Nazi salute in Germany you are arrested, here no and some are pleased if you do. Swastikas and similar are looked on as extremist in Europe, here the use of the pre-Constitution Eagle flag has no such reprobation.


    * A deliberate tactic used by Lt Col Del Cobos was to confine the GC_NP in boats and hotels in closed areas with four to small rooms for several days before the 1 Oct. Food was not abundant and they were subjected to a constant series of talks about duty and rebellions. The choosing of the Warner Bros. ferry was a masterpiece because they were shown videos of people on the street making fun of them in the Tweety Pie Boat. When they were let loose they were so wound up that it was lucky that nobody died. It did mean that the violence was not contained to a few isolated places.
     
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  12. Most technical standards are developed by National Bodies affiliated to ISO and IEC - and are manned by volunteers from industry
     
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  13. History of Catalonia in Spain is much deeper than it expresses, and you should know it.

    20702-31-38.pdf
     
  14. Goatman

    Goatman LE Book Reviewer

    Well that's an interesting list of possible sources - headed by The Guardian, backed up by no less august and magisterial arbiter of international politics than...er.....Vanity Fair.
    Oh...and of course The New European. No axe to grind there then.

    As a fellow Cold War Warrior I too have no doubt that Comrade Putain is laughing all the way to Lenin's Tomb over the backstabbing and machinations over the EU referendum.

    Whether the FSB troll farms were ordered to talk up Brexit or influenced the vote, I beg leave to doubt.

    Should @Wordsmith come up with something more concrete,then I stand ready to be convinced.

    It would not be the first time Vlad had been caught red handed.
    (hat,coat,taxi)
     
  15. Google throws up little information about this chap and the likelihood of his having unreformed authoritarian tendencies.

    Diego Pérez de los Cobos Orihuel — Wikipédia shows him to have been born in 1964.

    So at the time of the 1981 coup attempt he would have been a callow youth of 17 ?

    If we assume that he entered the GC in 1982 at age 18, its probable that the interests of reconciliation after Franco's death, will have meant that he would have come into contact with, or influenced by, members of that body who looked fondly on the Franco years. But nearly 40 years on, and having been subject to promotion reviews, is it really likely that this chap is the confirmed Neo Falangist that it seems he is starting to be presented as ?

    From a detached point of view, it seems the only saleable commodity that the Catalans yet have outside of Spain, is the police brutality angle ?

    Could it be possible that the GC commander story is being boosted for propaganda purposes ?