CAT shoot

Discussion in 'RAC' started by sneaknpeak, Nov 13, 2002.

Welcome to the Army Rumour Service, ARRSE

The UK's largest and busiest UNofficial military website.

The heart of the site is the forum area, including:

  1. Is there any one of you gentlemen of armour ever compete for the Canadian Army Trophy?
    I was on my old regt the Royal Canadian Dragoons twice once in grafenwehr and in hohne great times and good shooting. We used to go to hohne every year from lahr for gun camp, talk about hard yacka lol.
    the RCD gate was named after us as a sqn was based there for a few years after the war
  2. Way back in 1992 I wrote the paper for CRAC in HQ Armour when we had a 1 BR Corps.

    The basic problems were that CR1 (when RH got CR1 in 80's they entered and came last every time) could not shoot terribly well, something to do with Alluminium Turret Rings and that we refused to take partv in a competition that was seen as an elite troop shoot.

    We did not see the any advantage unless it was a troop selected at random from each nation and given only about 48 hours to prepare.  Some nations selected the best crews and they did little other training, a luxury not available or wanted by the RAC.

    I have no idea if with CR2 we are taking part, perhaps someone could tell us.

    However I would hope that the main reason for our non-participation remains - ie that it should be a test of overall fleet preparedness not an elite troop competition.
  3. Good evening Gentleman
    CR2E (Enhanced or Export) which ever you wish to call it, there is only one of these fine fillies, went up against all the best main battle tanks around the world for an export order, it beat all the following at gunnery T90, Leapoard 2,Leclerk, the only thing to beat us was the Aberams, but only at greater distances then were used to ie up 7 kms using KE, but we were given the wrong ammo, we should have taken the newer charm 2 ammo, but didnt, and so paid the price on that visit, but on a reshoot here in the UK with the correct ammo, came out on top. CR2 E is not too much different gun wise than the CR2 that our boys have. So all i will say is this CR2 is a deadly piece of equipment.
    Sadly there is no more CATT competitions to show of our deadly piece of hardware.
    Tally Ho old Chap.
  4. cat is a thing of the past now cost to much and evrybodies on tour now!!!
  5. Yes I was in RH at that time although in Commans Troop as Col's operator. We did dread taking CR1's on the ranges and there was some effort put into it. All our gunnery instructors were put in the Sqn, and we had a special programme for the gun computer which allowed you to track targets more quickly. The breech was also modified so that when we made the loaders guard it automatically closed the thing. This speeded up loading a bit but not much. We did very badly indeed and the Colonel was "shot" (his words) afterwards. Still if we'd won he'd have been made a General or something so it was the luck of the draw really. Didn't hear about the turret rings though that was interesting.

    Yes the other nations did tend to be a bit flexible with the rules, they were supposed to send a normal Sqn but I think all of them cheated (WE never, we're British! :D) The yanks though used to take the micky big style, you weren't supposed to have been on the ranges if they weren't in your sector the ones we went on were down in their area. We were in Fally a long time and as the CAT cup was going to be on Hohne ranges one year we were amused to see the yanks training on our ranges the year BEFORE. Might have been someone else? No, not when they had big flags flying from their vehicles with "American CAT cup Batt 198*". Never very good at covert ops eh :wink:
  6. We did CAT and formed a special hand picked sqn, all the best tanks and crews + 3 months training every day on range. Found CAT to bem ore political than friendly comp. We had a poor presentation of tgts so sked for reshoot on that bound (as allowed in rules) HC liasion officer would not put it to judges as "it would look bad for team and not very British to complain also it would mean other teams would have to wait. Team Manager (Cess, remember him stumpy capt in your gang) Then watched Germans have same problem and refuse to move till they had represent which they did and the same array (not allowed) Two small victories for UK though, duirng the reserve teams shoot UK and Chieftain thrashed everyone in sight and also believe it or not good old Chieftain was the most reliable MBT during the whole comp. They cut the times between bounds as it was though they were to long and Chieftain could not make it in time thus incurring penalties. Wrong made it every time and one pleasure is on the video watching Leopards penalties be added.

    BTW we came 3rd
  7. CAT shoot is that like the Malta dog shoot? an ancient Naval tradition every time you dock in Malta.
  8. LoL no it stands for the CAnadian Army Trophy given by the canadians to be competed for by NATO in tank gunnery
  9. I seem to remember 16/5L winning CAT in the early 70's, did we ever win again?
  10. I always heard that we started losing CAT following the introduction of laser ranging in Chieftain.
    Apparently under the rules for some shoots, the key factor was time from target pop-up/puff to FIRST round downrange - but, so I was told, the rules didn't actually specify the nature! So Chieftain crew is in all-round observation, target is puffed and spotted, gunner hits the footswitch for .50 (ranging gun for those who don't remember it!) and three rounds bang off downrange. Result: outstanding engagement times!
    Edited to add: Or should this go in the Urban Myths thread?
  11. All my Cheify gunnery was done on the laser, just missed the .50 ranging gun. I was under the impression that the three rounds fired by the gun had to bracket the target before you fired the main armament? Did the commander judge the range EVERY time so it only needed 3 rounds and not more? Perhaps they were very good at it and we trusted the laser too much. It was very rare that I got false reading back from a lased range though and the engagement times were quick.

    Never heard this before so would be interested in any other views.
  12. God, having to dig deep into the old memory now, Stumpy. 9-Dot sights, anyone? Yes, cdr called out a dot indicator, gnr laid on and sent down 3-round burst of .50. Fire was adjusted by bracketing until you got 2 hits on target for HESH and 1 for APDS. Could be quite quick and I agree, much improved with laser.
    The CAT point, though, was that the 'engagement time' recorded for the competition was from target unmasking to FIRST round downrange - not necessarily a hit. Thus, ldr yells 'Puff, 1 o'clock', gnr blats down 3-rd .50 UN-AIMED, cdr gives tgt indication and they go into Lulworth drills from there. Exceptional engagement times, split-second stuff if all-round obs is good, but not a chance of a first-round hit!
  13. From dot 1 to 4 straight fire order and gunner went through all 4 on own, from dot 5 on it was cmdr who nominated the starting dot. With good gunner dot 1-4 very fast but also need switched on cmdr as well to work out which dots were which.
  14. I believe 13/18 RH were the last to win it using Cents
  15. No,Aghart is right,16/5th won it in the seventies;One of my troop Sgts in JLR,was the winning gunner(Davies?),that was ´73/74.No 16/5 th on Arrse? :roll: