Case about the beating deaths closed

#1
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/08/international/asia/08bagram.html

The Army has dropped its case against the only officer to face criminal charges in connection with the beating deaths of two prisoners held by the United States in Afghanistan...the two men were killed within days of each other in December 2002
It was so long ago. More than 3 years passed. Probably the case was forgotten in Afghanistan.

Captain Beiring, 39, had been charged with lying to investigators and being derelict in his duties
Lying... Shame! But as we see American justice is able to forgive him.

Captain Beiring is the third member of the 377th Military Police Company, based in Cincinnati and Bloomington, Ind., to have had charges dismissed before trial.
So it is not something special. It appears that our American friends make a very valuable hint to the British.

Colonel Berg, the investigating judge ... concluded. "He may not have done his duty perfectly, but he did it well."
So I suspect that instead of punishment Captain Beiring should be decorated by medal or order and no doubt will be a genaral soon.
 
E

error_unknown

Guest
#2
I quote:

The judge who oversaw the pretrial inquiry, Lt. Col. Thomas S. Berg, sharply criticized the prosecutors' case, concluding in a 22-page report that they had failed to present sufficient evidence to support any of the charges.

We used to have a have a principle in law of innocent until proven guilty. Seems to me that certain people want different standards of evidence when it comes to prosecuting the military for political rather than legal reasons Sergey.
 
#3
Herrenbloke said:
I quote:

The judge who oversaw the pretrial inquiry, Lt. Col. Thomas S. Berg, sharply criticized the prosecutors' case, concluding in a 22-page report that they had failed to present sufficient evidence to support any of the charges.

We used to have a have a principle in law of innocent until proven guilty. Seems to me that certain people want different standards of evidence when it comes to prosecuting the military for political rather than legal reasons Sergey.
Herrenbloke!

Have I said that I accuse anybody? It is of course not my business. If American judge doesn't see sufficient evidences then no doubt he has right for such a statement.

But one thing look strange. Two men died in american custody obviously not because of natural causes and nobody is guilty.

Our American friends elaborated a very interesting method.

1) Make the 'investigation' very lengthy.
2) Involve an officer as an accused (a Captain or better a Colonel).
3) Reduce number of charged. On the final stage only the officer is charged.
4) Close the case because there is no 'sufficient evidence to support any of the charges'.
5) Happy end.
 
E

error_unknown

Guest
#4
In UK we have the other extreme Sergey, known terrorist killers who have murdered Britsh troops not being prosecuted. I've not seen the evidence in the above mentioned US case so I can't comment too much on the circumstances. However, the "reasonable doubt" argument only ever seems to apply to the terrorist defence and never the soldiers defence. My opinion is that a lot of prosecutions are being brought for political rather than legal reasons, these prosecutions usually have more evidential holes in them than Swiss cheese. Certainly in the UK there is a feeling that troops are being hung out to dry by our political masters to appease certain segments of the population and the media. It's probably no different in the US.
 
B

Biscuits_AB

Guest
#5
KGB_resident said:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/08/international/asia/08bagram.html

The Army has dropped its case against the only officer to face criminal charges in connection with the beating deaths of two prisoners held by the United States in Afghanistan...the two men were killed within days of each other in December 2002
It was so long ago. More than 3 years passed. Probably the case was forgotten in Afghanistan.

Captain Beiring, 39, had been charged with lying to investigators and being derelict in his duties
Lying... Shame! But as we see American justice is able to forgive him.

Captain Beiring is the third member of the 377th Military Police Company, based in Cincinnati and Bloomington, Ind., to have had charges dismissed before trial.
So it is not something special. It appears that our American friends make a very valuable hint to the British.

Colonel Berg, the investigating judge ... concluded. "He may not have done his duty perfectly, but he did it well."
So I suspect that instead of punishment Captain Beiring should be decorated by medal or order and no doubt will be a genaral soon.
I'm sure that there are a few Chechens who could 'two sh*ts' that story.
 
#6
Biscuits_AB said:
I'm sure that there are a few Chechens who could 'two sh*ts' that story.
You are right, Russian military prosecutors and judges will srcutinize this case (very useful for them).
 
E

error_unknown

Guest
#7
Sergey, if a couple of the scum behind Beslan died in Russian custody, would it bother you?
 
B

Biscuits_AB

Guest
#8
KGB_resident said:
Biscuits_AB said:
I'm sure that there are a few Chechens who could 'two sh*ts' that story.
You are right, Russian military prosecutors and judges will srcutinize this case (very useful for them).
I seen some footage of a couple of Chechens being dragged along on ropes behind a BTR 80. They were both dead. Call me picky, but somehow I don't think that their case was heard by anyone in the judiciary.
 
E

error_unknown

Guest
#11
Now if we can just extend the BTR policy to sex offenders we may have found an effective deterrent!
 

cpunk

LE
Moderator
#12
Herrenbloke said:
We used to have a have a principle in law of innocent until proven guilty. Seems to me that certain people want different standards of evidence when it comes to prosecuting the military for political rather than legal reasons Sergey.
I would think the problems here come from differing legal traditions. In the Anglo-American common law system we basically work from a presumption of innocence and require the prosecution to prove a case to a particular standard. In the Euro inquisitorial tradition, there is no presumption of innocence but the trial is supposed to arrive at the facts of the case. In the Soviet system, which may be carried on by the Russian Federation, you were guilty if the Party said so, and if there wasn't enough evidence then someone would make it up.
 
#13
Biscuits_AB said:
KGB_resident said:
Biscuits_AB said:
I'm sure that there are a few Chechens who could 'two sh*ts' that story.
You are right, Russian military prosecutors and judges will srcutinize this case (very useful for them).
I seen some footage of a couple of Chechens being dragged along on ropes behind a BTR 80. They were both dead. Call me picky, but somehow I don't think that their case was heard by anyone in the judiciary.
I saw it on Russian TV too. They (and many other Chechen fighters) were killed in a battle. They were armed and had a right to surrender. If they would be killed in a custody then of course it would be a crime. Killimg on a battlefield is not a crime. I hope you agree.
 
E

error_unknown

Guest
#14
Sergey wrote:

Killing on a battlefield is not a crime. I hope you agree.

I do agree, but that doesn't seem to stop troops being prosecuted on the flimsiest of pretexts, and what happens when the enemy decide that their battlefield will be schools, hospitals or underground trains? Do we prosecute the police when they make a mistake?
 
#15
Herrenbloke said:
Sergey wrote:

Killing on a battlefield is not a crime. I hope you agree.

I do agree, but that doesn't seem to stop troops being prosecuted on the flimsiest of pretexts, and what happens when the enemy decide that their battlefield will be schools, hospitals or underground trains? Do we prosecute the police when they make a mistake?
Herrenbloke!

Of cource any policeman (as any politician, any medic) has right for mistake. But there is one place where it is too hard thing to make a mistake - a jail, a custody where detained person is unable to resist. If a beating in such a place causes a death then it is not a mistake, it is a crime.

Yes, it is possible to 'investigate' such cases many years and at the end using juridicial tricks declare that nobody is guilty. But can it be presented as a victory of Western democracy? I doubt.
 
E

error_unknown

Guest
#16
Western democracy? We have no real democracy Sergey, just an elective minority dictatorship. I agree that deaths in custody should be properly investigated, but don't expect me to shed any tears for the killers of women and children.
 
B

Biscuits_AB

Guest
#17
KGB_resident said:
Biscuits_AB said:
KGB_resident said:
Biscuits_AB said:
I'm sure that there are a few Chechens who could 'two sh*ts' that story.
You are right, Russian military prosecutors and judges will srcutinize this case (very useful for them).
I seen some footage of a couple of Chechens being dragged along on ropes behind a BTR 80. They were both dead. Call me picky, but somehow I don't think that their case was heard by anyone in the judiciary.
I saw it on Russian TV too. They (and many other Chechen fighters) were killed in a battle. They were armed and had a right to surrender. If they would be killed in a custody then of course it would be a crime. Killimg on a battlefield is not a crime. I hope you agree.
WE only have the word of Russians that these men were killed first. Personally, I feel that your countries history in relation to human rights clouds my judgment. I'd be more inclined to believe that they died during the time that they were being dragged around as trophies. Anyone capable of doing that is capable of murder.

Ever since you've been on this site, you take some perverse pleasure of pointing out the wrongs/percieved wrongs of the west. I don't for a minute believe that you are a Russian, I'm more inlcined to believe that you are some Staffy from the Int Corps getting of on his jolly wheeze. If however, you are indeed what you claim to be, have a good look at what you lot did in the last century in realtion to human rights, before you dig at us.
 
#19
Biscuits_AB said:
WE only have the word of Russians that these men were killed first. Personally, I feel that your countries history in relation to human rights clouds my judgment. I'd be more inclined to believe that they died during the time that they were being dragged around as trophies. Anyone capable of doing that is capable of murder.
Dear Biscuits_AB!

During the 2d Chechen war there were real battles and many were killed (thousands). That time (Winter 1999/2000) roads were in bad conditions and only BTR's could be used to transport bodies of killed Chechen fighters close to the next village, to allow locals to find their relatives among the killed. Take into account that it was war time and each minute counter-attack of Chechen insurgents was possible. So alas this (of course inhuman) method of transportation was used because of security reasons. Probably you would prefer to see another method of transportation and (along with it) killed Russian soldiers but there were another opinions.

Biscuits_AB said:
Ever since you've been on this site, you take some perverse pleasure of pointing out the wrongs/percieved wrongs of the west.
I hope that it could useful. If you see (and agree) that something is wrong then it can help you to imporove situation.

Biscuits_AB said:
I don't for a minute believe that you are a Russian, I'm more inlcined to believe that you are some Staffy from the Int Corps getting of on his jolly wheeze.
Your theory is wrong. However, does it really matter?

Biscuits_AB said:
If however, you are indeed what you claim to be, have a good look at what you lot did in the last century in realtion to human rights, before you dig at us.
As I understand we discuss there namely current events. As to historical investigation then it would be right to make them on historical section of this forum.
 

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