Cartridge carriers (Sub cal type devices) no longer firearms

ugly

LE
Moderator
#1
I was allegedly in possession of a .223 to .22LR cartridge carrier (the correct name as the calibre isn't sub but the case is) and was rummaging through some pics on an old Blackberry and found these from WW1. Apparently for training Vickers gun crews on indoor ranges although I have no idea how the action would cycle but the case held a .22rf round.
Interestingly possession of these used to require an fac entry bur this is no longer the case.
IMG-20140125-00211.jpg
IMG-20140125-00212.jpg
IMG-20140125-00213.jpg
IMG-20140125-00214.jpg
 
#2
Is it rifled?
Sorry but I can't make it out in photo.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#3
Its not supposed to be rifled. One or two may be though.
ETA rifled cartridge carriers aren't firearms in their own right see below!
 
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ugly

LE
Moderator
#4
#5
Miniature calibre (caliber) adapters and conversions (II)
I think its one of the cartridge conveyors mentioned here: Lee-Enfield Pattern 18 - ".303 cum .22" (II)
The steel conveyors were smoothbored and chambered for the .22" rimfire long rifle round. A loading tool was provided to press the rounds into the conveyor, flush with the rim. It was also used to press out the fired empty case
I have a calibre sized unit in 7.65 (.32 acp) which closely resembles a steel cased .303 with spring steel finger to hold the .32 cartridge , a floating firing pin provides the impetus to initiate the cartridge. This was intended for sniping (poaching) the odd game bird without resorting to a FMJ round. The 'snap' certainly not as loud was not as a regular round certainly was not an assassin's wet dream but was quite accurate for close range.

Miniature calibre (caliber) adapters and conversions (II)
I think its one of the cartridge conveyors mentioned here: Lee-Enfield Pattern 18 - ".303 cum .22" (II)
The steel conveyors were smoothbored and chambered for the .22" rimfire long rifle round. A loading tool was provided to press the rounds into the conveyor, flush with the rim. It was also used to press out the fired empty case
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#6
.32 acp was a training round trialled for the sub cal/carrier method in WW1
 
#7
Capture 1.PNG


Capture 2.PNG


22 long rifle in a 22 Hi Power.

Would this type not require an FAC entry now?
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#10
Would this type not require an FAC entry now?
2016 guidance is reasonably clear on the decision to consider the items below not as section 1;
"Other classes of firearms and ammunition 2.57 When considering whether a particular weapon should be regarded as a firearm to which sections 1, 2 or 5 of the 1968 Act applies or which is covered by the 1982 Act, it is important to remember that the purpose of the legislation is to control the supply and possession of all rifles, guns and pistols which could be used for criminal or subversive purposes while recognising that individuals may own and use firearms and other devices for legitimate purposes. In the absence of a decision by a court, the Secretary of State takes the view that the following devices should not be regarded as firearms within the definition of the Act: a) captive-bolt stunning devices (where the bolt remains attached to the barrel) used in the slaughter of animals, operated by blank cartridges or pneumatically; b) nail guns, designed as tools for the insertion of nails, metal pins and threaded bolts into solid objects; c) alarm guns, which are devices operated by a trip wire for the detonation of small explosive charges; d) line throwing implements used for saving life of those in vessels in distress; e) net throwing guns which are devices designed for the live capture of birds and animals (but not those net throwing guns which are designed for law enforcement purposes); f) rocket signal and illuminating devices (but not signalling pistols or hand-held devices using cartridges, and which discharge a signal or illuminating load from a fixed barrel); g) fuse igniting pistols designed to ignite a slow burning pyrotechnic fuse or shock cord by firing a primer or blank cartridge; h) cable cutters and cable spikers (designed to earth the residual electronic charge held in high voltage cables) fired by blank cartridges; i) harpoon guns utilising a spigot and fired by blank cartridge, such as the Greener harpoon gun; j) dummy and target launchers (designed to project a dummy for dog training or an artificial target for shooting), utilising a spigot and powered by blank cartridges; k) armoured fighting vehicle (AFV) smoke dischargers used to project pyrotechnics for smoke screening; and l) smoothbore sleeve type chamber inserts for use in a shotgun or rifle (chamber adaptors which incorporate rifling and chambered for any cartridge are subject to Section 1 control.)."
From https://assets.publishing.service.g..._on_Firearms_Licensing_Law_April_2016_v20.pdf

Important note in bold, very important in bold italics.
This is very good because I sell blank firing dog dummy launchers which unfortunately HMRC class as spigot grenade launchers but the bonded warehouse are more than happy to ship!
 
#12
Cheers guys, more things in the lists to shop for hahaha.

Would .308 to .22 LR be possible, I'm thinking it's a bit too much of a step. If the inserts were reasonably priced it would massively increase the number of practice shoots I would be able to shoot
 
#13
Cheers guys, more things in the lists to shop for hahaha.

Would .308 to .22 LR be possible, I'm thinking it's a bit too much of a step. If the inserts were reasonably priced it would massively increase the number of practice shoots I would be able to shoot
Yes there is such an item .303 to .22, will look at the one in stock to note maker, suspect its from herman the german.
 
#14
I have a handful of .303" adaptors that are chambered for something around .30 calibre (possibly .32" ACP?). Its very hard to determine if they are/were rifled. I have a feeling that some of these have a type of polygonal rifling that is practically invisible.

I always wondered if these were considered as Sect 1 barrels - i.e. they have a chamber and some sort of bore. If so, should they not be subject to proof as a pressure-bearing part?
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#15
I have a handful of .303" adaptors that are chambered for something around .30 calibre (possibly .32" ACP?). Its very hard to determine if they are/were rifled. I have a feeling that some of these have a type of polygonal rifling that is practically invisible.

I always wondered if these were considered as Sect 1 barrels - i.e. they have a chamber and some sort of bore. If so, should they not be subject to proof as a pressure-bearing part?
Apart from not wanting to line the pockets of the proof house any more than necessary surely the fact that they are firing something of less pressure in a proof tested rifle via a steel carrier should be sufficient, isn't .22LR 8 tons psi and normal proof now for larger rifles such as .308 around the 20 tons psi?
I'd be happy!
 
#16
Bump.


Found these in my odds and sods ammo box. They appear to be full-size .303" (7.7mm), so presumably fit an adaptor that either stops at the chamber shoulder, or has a very thin (= case neck size) tube that reaches to the lead. Apparently the original Wilkinson's cartridge was a bit longer than these Kynoch versions.

Of course I can't now find the adaptors that I had somewhere, and which might possibly fit these rounds..


Kynock 303 adaptor sm1.JPG


Kynock 303 adaptor sm2.JPG


Kynock 303 adaptor sm3.JPG
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#17
Very nice, I dont dare to think about the value, keep me one for a swap for a 7mm Mk1z.










Pretty please!:cuddle::cuddle::cuddle::cuddle::cuddle::cuddle:
 
#18
Yes there is such an item .303 to .22, will look at the one in stock to note maker, suspect its from herman the german.
They used to be quite common round here, in fact I have a conversion kit for my 357 mag revolver from 357 to 22 LR. Freely available here that's including the barrel insert as it's not considered to be a barrel in its own right. The thing is a real pain to load though, so I never use it any more.
 
#20
Another bump, for those interested.


Found one of the carriers. Turns out that it is a .32ACP to .303" adaptor. It is indeed "smoothbore", and the "bore" seems slightly oversize compared to the .32/7.65mm bullet. Funnily enough, the "bore" seems to be a good fit for the slightly fatter Kynoch rounds, although these will not fully chamber because of the rim.

303 adaptor 32ACP sm1.JPG


303 adaptor 32ACP sm2.JPG


303 adaptor 32ACP sm3.JPG


303 adaptor 32ACP sm4.JPG
 

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