Canadians in the TA

robre

Old-Salt
#1
Can anyone help me? Can a Canadian passport holder who is staying in the UK on a 4 year visa join the TA?
 
#2
Yes.

BritishArmy recruits from around 130 countries. Canadian's are more than welcome, bring some mates along too.
 
#3
For any Commonwealth national who wishes to join the TA, they must have a minimum of 3 years on their visa as that we sign up for that.
However, if they are students, they are only allowed to work a MAXIMUM of 25 hours per week. So, as we are paid 24 hours a day on a weekend, and a weekend would comprise roughly 42 hours (2000-2359 Friday, 0000-2359 Saturday, 0000-1400 Sunday) they cannot join as they contravene the visa. Annual Camps = forget it.
 
#4
MightyBigEgo said:
For any Commonwealth national who wishes to join the TA, they must have a minimum of 3 years on their visa as that we sign up for that.
However, if they are students, they are only allowed to work a MAXIMUM of 25 hours per week. So, as we are paid 24 hours a day on a weekend, and a weekend would comprise roughly 42 hours (2000-2359 Friday, 0000-2359 Saturday, 0000-1400 Sunday) they cannot join as they contravene the visa. Annual Camps = forget it.
Can the terms of the visa be amended upon application?
 
#5
If you mean once they have joined the TA to show that they are HM Forces, then no - we are casual labourers (still laugh at that!). If they join the Regs then yes.
 
#6
I was thinking more in terms of having the visa annotated to "maximum 25 hours per week, exclusive of any service undertaken in the Reserve Forces" or something similar. Alternatively, "maximum 3 days per week, averaged over a 12 month period."

As I understand visas (and I'm not particularly versed in the subject), the terms are not set in stone and can be amended according to individual circumstances. Membership of the TA would be of mutual benefit to both the applicant and HMG.
 
#7
putteesinmyhands said:
I was thinking more in terms of having the visa annotated to "maximum 25 hours per week, exclusive of any service undertaken in the Reserve Forces" or something similar. Alternatively, "maximum 3 days per week, averaged over a 12 month period."

As I understand visas (and I'm not particularly versed in the subject), the terms are not set in stone and can be amended according to individual circumstances. Membership of the TA would be of mutual benefit to both the applicant and HMG.
Can be, a guy that works for me has a Canadian bird that is over here on a 4 year visa and she did something that allowed her to join the TA. I'll find out more details on Monday but I know it can be done
 
#8
i did see somebody come into my barracks, he was wearing a Canadian flag onthe right shoulder but wearing a british camo, not sure if he is exchange or a canadian national in British uniform.

dunno if that is relevent and could be useful to you.
 
#9
Union Flag = British Army, regardless of the nationality of the individual.
Maple Leaf = Canadian Army

Must have been on exchange.
 
#10
Let me elucidate. The 25 hour rule ONLY applies if you have a STUDENT visa. There are other visas such as UK Ancestry, Working Holidaymaker, Work Visa, that let you work all thehours God sends if you wish. The student visa has this rule because if you are working over 25 hours a week, when do you study? If you are not studying, then you are in breech of the conditions set.
Aunty, you friend's bird is most probably not a student, as her visa is for four years, and most full time degrees are a maximum of 3 years (unless you are in Scotland).
 
#11
MightyBigEgo said:
Let me elucidate. The 25 hour rule ONLY applies if you have a STUDENT visa. There are other visas such as UK Ancestry, Working Holidaymaker, Work Visa, that let you work all thehours God sends if you wish. The student visa has this rule because if you are working over 25 hours a week, when do you study? If you are not studying, then you are in breech of the conditions set.
Aunty, you friend's bird is most probably not a student, as her visa is for four years, and most full time degrees are a maximum of 3 years (unless you are in Scotland).
From the Visa website: http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/servlet/F...elerate/ShowPage&c=Page&cid=1018721067373#Q10
Can I work?
You can take part-time or holiday work, but you must not:

work for more than 20 hours a week during term time unless your placement is part of your studies, has been agreed with your educational institution and leads to a degree or qualification awarded by a nationally recognised examining body
do business, be self-employed or provide services as a professional sportsperson or entertainer, or
work full-time in a permanent job.

If you are coming to the UK as a student for six months or less, you must ask the Entry Clearance Officer (or the Immigration Officer if you do not need an entry clearance) for permission to work.
Although the Army pays on the basis of a 24 hour day, the reality is that about 8 hours per day is the norm, so quoting "Muster Parade 08:00 - Dismissal Parade 17:00 = 8 hours (excluding breaks)" is not even bending the truth. A typical weekend wouldn't even be close to 20 hours on this basis. A night exercise could spoil things though. The Army would be obliged to be honest and give such details :lol: if somebody bothered to investigate further :roll: .

Annual Camp wouldn't be a problem provided it coincided with vacations. Recruit training involving periods longer than a weekend would also have to fit in with vacations.

It could also be worthwhile to have the term "week" defined. If it is considered to be MON-FRI, then no problem whatsoever (unless mobilised :twisted: ). It's a long time ago now, but when I was on the dole after leaving college, working on a Sunday was not required to be advised to the Employment Exchange.

It's worth making deeper enquiries, rather than just assuming that membership of the TA is precluded.
 
#12
Week is defined as a seven day continuous period.
I would like to see the person stand up to any SNCO or officer on an FTX weekend on Longmoor and say "Actually we really work only 8 hours a day, so I am going home now. See you tomorrow!" but I know what you mean, and it has been debated in my unit many a time. The point is though, that if immigration did bother to investigate (bearing in mind they are trying to find 1000 prospective deportees), the unit NOT the army could get find up to £2000 per person (student that is) for KNOWINGLY employing a student over and beyond the hours laid down in the conditions. Not really worth the hassle is it?
And the rules are that the hours allowed to work are set in stone for the duration of the course, regardless of whether it is a vacation or not. Even using your 8 hour rule, CMS(R)/Annual Exercise is still 56 hours per week which is more than most people work in a week. Bearing in mind you are still being paid for the RnR day.
 
#13
Hence why the student would have to attend Camp or training periods of greater than a weekend outside term time. The working restriction (according to the HMG website) only applies during term-time.

I certainly wouldn't advocate telling porkies, but I'd be surprised if a carefully worded request to the Home Office (particularly if via the Canadian Embassy) didn't result in permission to attend weekend training.
 
#14
OK, MBE, since you seem to know your sheeyat, how's about this for a puzzler?

It's about the four-years-on-the-visa rule for Commonwealth nationals. Say you have a potential recruit who possesses dual nationality: Canadian and Belgian. Let's call him Alphonse.

By virtue of the Belgian nationality, Alphonse entered Blighty without needing a visa of any sort. By the same token (is Belgian nationality a token - I think so), Alphonse has indefinite leave to remain here.

Alphonse decides to do the decent thing for his adopted home and applies to join the TA.

Interior. Evening. A man in Combat 95 is sitting behind a wall of pristine TA brochures and DVDs, when a chipper young lad enters the room.

Alphonse: "Please let me join the TA."

RRTT bod: "Oh thank God - a recruit. Hang on - you're some kind of foreigner. Where are you from?"

Alphonse: "Canada."

RRTT bod: "How long have you got left on your visa?"

Alphonse: "I don't have a visa."

RRTT bod (getting twitchy): "Oh, don't you now, my 'Canadian' friend? Been plotting to overthrow the state but decided to stick around?"

Alphonse: "No - I'm half Belgian. Half-EU, half-Commonwealth. All steely-eyed killer. Let me join."

RRTT bod (brusquely): "No visa, no entry to the TA."

Alphonse: "What le fuk? I thought you wanted people. I have indefinite leave to remain, so there is no visa issue. I'm a Commonwealth national, love the Queen, and everything!"

RRTT bod: "Fuk off, Frenchie."

Alphonse: "What if I go along to the immigration people and ask them to give me a visa?"

RRTT bod: "Give it a go, my cheese-eating chum."

Interior. Day. Alphonse enters a dingy building in Croydon or somewhere and approaches a bespectacled woman whose name badge reads "Mrs C.A.M. Putah-Sezno."

Alphonse: "Fuk me this place is a dump. Listen, issue me a visa, please."

Mrs Putah-Sezno: "What? Have you committed a crime?"

Alphonse: "No."

Mrs Putah-Sezno: "Well, no, then."

Alphonse: "I want to join the TA. They say I have to have a visa. Issue me one."

Mrs Putah-Sezno: "How come you're here if you don't have a visa? How did you get in?"

Alphonse: "On my Belgian passport."

Mrs Putah-Sezno: "Then you don't need a visa to be here, thickie. Stop wasting my time!"

Alphonse sighs and leaves the room. On the way out, he passes a group of about half a dozen bearded men.

Bearded Man 6: "Fancy a life of military adventure?"

Alphonse: "Yes, please!"

Bearded Man 1: "Well, we run these really cool courses on the Pakistan/Afghanistan border."

Alphonse: "Sign me up! Do I need a visa?"

Bearded Man 3: "Yes."

Alphonse: "D'oh!"
The rule seems stupid in Alphonse's case. Does it apply?
 
#15
Of course not, he's an EU national (cheese eating...) and thus a permit is not required, as long as the Army has no grief with employing Belgians. The RRTT bod is just a mong who doesn't quite seem to understand the whole EU right to work wherever you like malarky.

Alphonse may meant to be registering with the authorities every now and again to ensure all is above board, well you do in some EU countries, but other than that I can't see a problem. Tell him to take his various passports along, and maybe a copy of the EU charter or something which he can ram down the mongs throat.
 
#16
TA_sig said:
Of course not, he's an EU national (cheese eating...) and thus a permit is not required, as long as the Army has no grief with employing Belgians. The RRTT bod is just a mong who doesn't quite seem to understand the whole EU right to work wherever you like malarky.

Alphonse may meant to be registering with the authorities every now and again to ensure all is above board, well you do in some EU countries, but other than that I can't see a problem. Tell him to take his various passports along, and maybe a copy of the EU charter or something which he can ram down the mongs throat.
Luke, I am that mong.

Do you actually know whether what you have said is true, or are you merely applying common sense with a dash of EU law?

I should point out that ACIO Strand (in London, who deal with lots of enquiries from Commonwealth bods) have told me that Alphonse is not allowed to join the TA (or the regular Army, for that matter). They say that if you have dual nationality one of them has to be British.

I have to say that I find that policy a little bit dubious. The EEA nationality would give Alphonse permanent right to remain in the UK: he would have an infinite visa, so to speak. The Commonwealth nationality would give him the right to join the Army.

I need chapter and verse rebuttal of ACIO's advice or else this issue (which is not hypothetical) will have to be fired upwards. In the meantime, I have three potential recruits in Alphonse's situation. Yes, three. Not all called Alphonse.
 
#17
I'm just applying some common sense, along with a bit of the ol EU law that had been forced into my cranium during at least six years of my edumication, plus my own vested interest in being a 'trans-national' employee.

I have no chapter and verse, I'd just harrass different people in the department and see if anyone disagrees. He has the right to join the army as a commonwealth citizen, he has the right to remain indeffinately as a Belgian. However there may be restrictions on him joining as his second nationality is not commonwealth, as Belgians are not usually permitted to be in the British forces(?), thus he may not be able to join as he is from the continent. Security clearance would probably be a bit of a nightmare too. The forces would be employing a citizen of a country of which they have little influence, and said country may have their own requirements of their citizen which the British would not be able to deal with, unlike the commonwealth where greater influence is held.

At a guess it's nothing against the Canadians, it's just something against Belgians.

The above may all be a complete load of balls and I take no responsibility for Belgian Alphonse clones infiltrating the TA and stealing all our military secrets, such as what time NAAFI break is.
 
#18
The 20-hour limit for students is rubbish - persons serving in the Home Forces are exempt from all immigration control. So when you are training with the TA during that time you are an exempt person, not a person on a student visa, and the 20 hours limit does not apply.

As for the dual-Canadian/Belgian national, he fulfils the nationality criterion as a Commonwealth citizen. Obviously he cannot join a branch that is UK nationals only, but those are a minority in the Army. The Army clearly has an internal policy that say that people on short-term visas should not be accepted - whatever rationale there is for that policy clearly does not apply to someone exercising rights under the EC Treaty. If whoever is applying it is being difficult, attempts should be made to refer it up the chain to someone with some brains. Alternatively, you can apply to the Home Office for an EEA residence permit, which is free of charge and is normally issued for five years, as long as the person is genuinely working in the UK long-term. This has the added benefit of enabling you to apply for British citizenship after 5 years.
 
#19
Hammockhead.. what you say is half correct about serving in the forces being exempt from the immigration controls (actually they still need their passport endorsed and still have to go through immigration controls as a non EU national) but for REGULARS only.
Dr Evil, re your request, wait out. Have just returned from leave and will get back to you.
 
#20
Oh yes, and no EU national has to register him or herself with the police/authorities "every now and then" as all EU nationals have the right of abode in any other EU state. They may have to get an identity card depending on the country (I beleive it only applies to Spain, Belgium and Italy now but don't quote me on that) but that is that, they can get all the benefits of being a national in that member country whether it is a Brit in Poland or a Belgian in the UK...
 

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