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Canadian Helicopter Down off Greece

Plenty enough people killed people in the early era of flying to strongly suggest that removing humans from decision loops was a positive thing.

I really dont have a problem with people killing people in warfare. It has been going on since time immemoriable and will until this world burns out.

Can you imagine being killed by a
People kill people. Programs are just the tools.

Until the time when the tool over rides the pilot who is doing a fine job, but the programme keeps forcing the nose down.
 
The wreckage of the crashed helicopter along with human remains has been found by an undersea drone in 3,143 metres of water. Recovery is expected to take some time due to the need to careful to preserve evidence for the crash investigation.
Searchers find wreckage, human remains at scene of Canadian Forces chopper crash

Hopefully, for the sake of their families, there will be enough to make positive identification of all those killed, so they will not be listed amongst the 'missing'. RIP.
 
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I really dont have a problem with people killing people in warfare. It has been going on since time immemoriable and will until this world burns out.

Can you imagine being killed by a


Until the time when the tool over rides the pilot who is doing a fine job, but the programme keeps forcing the nose down.
That program would have been designed to keep the nose down for a reason. By a person.

Sometimes the algorithms get it wrong. People get it wrong too.

The real question is which is more reliable, and what the response is when an algorithm causes harm.

If a self driving car kills someone, it'll be all over the news. But the thousands of human caused deaths won't even make page 7.

As someone has said, modern vehicles use computers to do things that humans alone can't. They are not perfect; nothing can be.

But the decision on how algorithms are employed, and the ethical considerations surrounding them are made by people. Including accepting the likely impact in terms of risk.

Computers don't kill people, humans do.
 
The operation to recover the remains of the RCN helicopter and crew which crashed in the Mediterranean last month has been ended.
Statement from Rear-Admiral Craig Baines, Commander Maritime Forces Atlantic on the recovery operations of Stalker 22 in the Mediterranean Sea
Multiple pieces of the helicopter were recovered, as has a number of human remains. The latter have not been identified yet. The helicopter was apparently in pieces, including the main cabin.

The recovery ship EDT Hercules will now proceed to Augusta Bay, Italy, near naval air station Sigonella. The recovered items will then be flown back to Canada.

There are more details at the above link, but this is the gist of it. There is no information at this time as to the cause of the crash.
 
That program would have been designed to keep the nose down for a reason. By a person.

Sometimes the algorithms get it wrong. People get it wrong too.
...


I wouldn't trust a decent programmer to post a letter for me. People who write solid efficient code usually lack [for want of a better word] common sense. "But why would anyone do that?" is something I've heard more than once when reviewing programs that have to interact with 'normal' humans.
 
I wouldn't trust a decent programmer to post a letter for me. People who write solid efficient code usually lack [for want of a better word] common sense. "But why would anyone do that?" is something I've heard more than once when reviewing programs that have to interact with 'normal' humans.
The programmers don't make the decisions - code monkeys write what the software engineers design. Which in turn is based upon a set decision set decided by policy ninjas, legal experts, etc etc.
 
The operation to recover the remains of the RCN helicopter and crew which crashed in the Mediterranean last month has been ended.
Statement from Rear-Admiral Craig Baines, Commander Maritime Forces Atlantic on the recovery operations of Stalker 22 in the Mediterranean Sea
Multiple pieces of the helicopter were recovered, as has a number of human remains. The latter have not been identified yet. The helicopter was apparently in pieces, including the main cabin.

The recovery ship EDT Hercules will now proceed to Augusta Bay, Italy, near naval air station Sigonella. The recovered items will then be flown back to Canada.

There are more details at the above link, but this is the gist of it. There is no information at this time as to the cause of the crash.

A Canadian CC-177 was visiting Sigonella over the weekend, probably collecting what the EDT Hercules has recovered.
 
Here's the CBC news report on the latest information on the crash.
Cyclone chopper crash investigation focuses on 'aircraft system and human factors'

Investigators are looking at "aircraft system and human factors".
Air force flight safety investigators say they are looking at "aircraft system and human factors" in their probe of a CH-148 Cyclone helicopter crash off the coast of Greece at the end of April.

The helicopter was executing a turn at low altitude prior to landing when it hit the water at high speed.
"During this final complex manoeuvring turn to close with the ship, the aircraft did not respond as the crew would have anticipated," said the report.

"This event occurred at a low altitude, was unrecoverable and the aircraft entered a high energy descent and impacted the water astern the ship."

The news report says that the wording used suggests the problem may be with the flight control system.
The reference to the aircraft not responding the way the crew "would have anticipated" is significant for two reasons.

It points to possible flight control problems that could be either mechanical or computer-related.

The Cyclone is a militarized version of the Sikorsky S-92 helicopter. Unlike the civilian version, the military Cyclone operates on what's known as a fly-by-wire (FWB) system.

The Sikorsky Cyclone is a militarised version of the S-92. Part of the conversion included installing a fly-by-wire system in place of the original analogue hydraulic and cable system.
Sikorsky won the contract to supply the Cyclones back in 2004 based on the pledge that it could create a military version of the S-92. The result, according to the commander of the 1st Canadian Air Division, was an almost entirely new aircraft.

"The CH-148 Cyclone is a very different machine than the S-92," Maj.-Gen. Alain Pelletier said at a recent briefing.

"It's not only a militarized version of the S-92 of the helicopter. It's had a number of components, including its mission system — that is the mission, the kit we brought aboard the helicopter to actually support the Royal Canadian Navy."

He called it a "cousin fleet" to the S-92.

There were earlier problems with the flight control system, which Sikorsky supposedly fixed in a software update. At that time the problem had caused all three flight control computers to shut down and reset themselves. The helicopter dropped about 500 feet before the pilot was able to recover and reset the system.
Some of those issues presented themselves as Sikorsky pushed to get the CH-148 into service. During a 2017 training mission off Nova Scotia, one of the helicopters experienced a software "glitch."

The malfunction forced all three flight control computers to shut down and reset momentarily. The aircraft dropped about 500 feet before the pilot was able to recover and reset the system.

The air force said the problem was corrected in a software update through the manufacturer.
 
Canada's Sikorsky Cyclone ASW helicopters apparently will be flying again within days, but there will be flight restrictions on them. There are no details on the exact schedule or what the flight restrictions will be.
Air force to return Cyclone choppers to service 'within the coming days'
The full investigation is expected to take some time, so this announcement is about interim measures to get the helicopters operational again for now.

The flight recorders have been analysed, and mechanical failure has been ruled out. The investigation is now looking at the fly by wire flight control system. The report says that the helicopter was flying in "a computer-assisted mode" at the time of the crash, and that the pilot "punched in two commands that appeared to be outside of its programming". That explanation is a bit vague, but it seems to mean that the pilot entered something into the flight control system that it did not handle gracefully.
An analysis of the flight data recorders has allowed investigators to rule out mechanical failure.

The investigation is looking at the flight control system, which is a high-tech "fly-by-wire" system.

At the time of the crash, the pilot was flying the helicopter in a computer-assisted mode and punched in two commands that appeared to be outside of its programming.

Pellietier said training will be updated to safely allow the fleet to return to operations.

A more complete explanation will likely require waiting for the final report.
 
Here's the official press release on the Sikorsky Cyclone ASW helicopters being returned to service. It has a much clearer explanation than the above press release on what actually happened.

In short, the autopilot was set to maintain a specific speed and altitude. Then during manoeuvring to land, the pilot's inputs differed significantly from the autopilot's settings, at which point "the aircraft did not respond in a way that the crew was expecting". This apparently only happens under very specific circumstances and the crew would not have been aware of this problem.
While the Directorate of Flight Safety investigation continues, information that the investigation uncovered to date —primarily from the Cyclone’s flight data recorder — allowed the investigative team to replicate the conditions in the CH-148 Cyclone flight simulator and rule out any mechanical failure. This revealed that the aircraft’s flight director was set to hold a specific altitude and airspeed. Thus, during the complex manoeuvring turn to align with the ship, the pilot’s inputs were significantly different from the autopilot settings and the aircraft did not respond in a way that the crew was expecting. The investigative team has confirmed that this rare anomaly only occurred under a very specific and narrow set of circumstances. The crew would have had no previous exposure or experience on how to handle this situation.

With these circumstances now clearly understood, the RCAF has completed a detailed risk assessment and is implementing mitigation measures to allow for the safe resumption of flying operations.

This sounds vaguely reminiscent of the Boeing 737 Max problems, although of course the actual technical means by which it comes about are different. The apparent similarity as I see it is the aircraft's automatic systems doing one thing while the crew are trying to do something else and not being aware that the aircraft would make its own decisions in this regards.

Just what the temporary mitigation procedures being followed are is not clear from any account that I've seen, but we might speculate that it involves making sure the autopilot is manually disengaged when doing anything that might present a risk.
 
The Sikorsky Cyclones helicopters are beginning to be returned to service in Canada. Apparently the software issue has not been fixed yet, but operating procedures have been changed in some unspecified way to try to avoid another crash. Deliveries of new helicopters from the manufacturer will also resume. The software is due to be fixed by the end of 2021. Sikorsky are owned by Lockheed Martin.
Cyclone returns to service for first time since deadly crash

The air force has conducted its first flight of a CH-148 Cyclone since last spring's deadly crash — and the Department of National Defence is signalling it is ready to resume delivery of the remaining maritime helicopters still on order.

A Cyclone belonging to 423 Squadron, based in Shearwater, N.S., conducted a training flight near Halifax Harbour on Monday — almost one week after the military cleared the aircraft to resume operations.

Aircrew are being given refreshed training on avoiding the flight control software problem that brought down a Cyclone off the coast of Greece on April 29, an accident that killed six members of the military.

Jessica Lamirande, a spokeswoman for the Department of National Defence (DND), said CH-148 deliveries will resume shortly after the new flight procedures are formally approved and all aircrew have received their additional training.
 

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