Canada: Are German troops worth more than Canadians?

[eveyoz]

Are German troops worth more than Canadians?

Matthew Fisher
CanWest News Service


Thursday, November 09, 2006

OLDENBURG, Germany — Is the life of a German soldier serving in Afghanistan worth more than the life of a Canadian soldier?

That emotive question, or something like it, is what Prime Minister Stephen Harper is expected to ask when leaders of the 26 NATO countries gather for a summit in Latvia at the end of November.

The differences in the number of Germans and Canadians who have been killed in combat in Afghanistan this year are stark.

Germany, with more than 3,000 troops in the relative quiet of northern Afghanistan, has not lost one soldier to the Taliban this year.

Canada, with 2,500 soldiers, has lost 34 Canadians since March in the much more dangerous south.

More below . . .



http://www.canada.com/globaltv/national/story.html?id=d72d0a5a-2623-4561-8420-a9a39e8b9ff7

 

[armchair_jihad]

Good he should put all of those big talking ******* on the spot - apart from the Poles, Estonians etc who are down South.

The North of Afghanistan - Northern Alliance territory, could be held with half a TA section (no disrespect to the TA).

 

[eveyoz]

The canadians seem to be quite vocal about Stan and their troops. It's good to see.

 

[armchair_jihad]

They (and the Anglosphere) is doing a top job.

 

[wotan]

From my viewpoint, comparing casualty figures is a bad road to go down. For many years the Canadian government (NOT our soldiers) rode about on the coattails of others and loved to poke their finger into the eye of not only Uncle Sam, but Queen Bess as well. All the while, we didn't cough up our fair share to NATO and other alliance agreements.

I have no desire to see the casualty count go up among any allied nation, including the Germans and the Canucks.

But maybe, we, the Canadians, are simply feeling what it is like to be given the short end of the stick by "a trusted and reliable" ally.

My rant ends, I just hope that the troops accomplish their mission and as many of them as possible come home as safe as can be.

 

[RiojaDOC]

I’m not sure that I ever really agreed with the invasion of Iraq. I suspect like a lot of people who contribute to this site I was equivocal about the UK’s contribution when we first went in. In the case of Afghanistan I had no qualms however. Our closest and most powerful ally had been attacked by terrorists who drew heavily upon the support of the Taliban. Bush and Blair may have led us up the garden path in Iraq and I accept that that makes things difficult for the Germans in Afghanistan. I also realise that a few Germans fear the rise of militarism in their own society. But let’s not beat about the bush here. Most Germans are happy to see young Canadians, Americans and Britons die in a war they should be involved in. The islamo-fascism of the Taliban is as much a threat to the sedentary life of the average Kraute as it is to the average Yank, Brit or Canuke. The failure of Germany, and its military in particular, is N abrogation of moral responsibility for defence of western liberal democratic values that is every bit as contemptible as the Wehrmachts acquiescence in Nazism in the 1930s and 40s. In answer to the Canadian PM’s question, yes, Germans do believe that their young men’s lives are worth more than young Canadians and that is why they are not there. At the margins of German politics there will be those who have a genuine moral conviction that their troops should, or should not be there. Yet make no mistake, for the majority, be it by commission or omission your average Hamburger is happy to let the average Manitoban die on his behalf.

Germany, Germany contemptible above all others!

 

[Bugsy]

At the margins of German politics there will be those who have a genuine moral conviction that their troops should, or should not be there. Yet make no mistake, for the majority, be it by commission or omission your average Hamburger is happy to let the average Manitoban die on his behalf.

Germany, Germany contemptible above all others!

You obviously don't like the Krauts much, but I think you may be misinformed here. It's not a question of any people "on the margins of German politics with a moral conviction", although that may play a minor role, it's much more a question of the German Constitution (Grundgesetz) which was itself amended to enable German troops to be deployed to Aghanistan (and Bos and Kos).

In contrast to your sweeping statements, many Krauts feel they should be shouldering more responsibility, as do the troops themselves. The problem is that this would require a further change in the German Constitution and debate on this is ongoing as we speak.

Maybe you should gather a bit more information before you start gobbing off.

MsG

 

[AndyPipkin]

Right, folks, time to remember to be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it. Which would you prefer, the small, inefficient, battle-dodging German armed forces we have now, or the large, highly efficient, very well equipped, not at all afraid of a fight German Army we had in, say 1914-18 and 1939-45?

 

[Alsacien]

The Bundeswehr is 2 separate armies - the career or professional soldiers, and the guys doing obligatory conscription. The money has never been attractive (compared to other jobs in Germany), but this is now tempered by high unemployment in many areas especially the old east. More of a problem is the fact that it is perceived as a crap job by your average German, eg no respect.
The career soldiers populate all the senior ranks obviously, and also the more interesting units either specialist or "elite". These guys are keen to change the Bundeswehr into a professional army with overseas combat/peacekeeping etc experience, but there is only limited support from the population that fears little Hans doing his conscript bit is going to find himself receiving incoming in Afganistan.
The politicians are balancing this public perspective with a need to be seen as part of the International/EU/Nato community, as the old policy of bankrolling other nations doing the hands on, and the aid agencies cannot be financed anymore.

 

[fantassin]

These guys are keen to change the Bundeswehr into a professional army with overseas combat/peacekeeping etc experience.

Ask various members of the current EU mission in the DRC what they think of the professional element of the Bundeswehr...they tend to agree on one thing: to never again fall under the command of the German armed forces, especially in Africa where they are completely out of their depth and culturaly clueless.

 

[armchair_jihad]

Which would you prefer..... the large, highly efficient, very well equipped, not at all afraid of a fight German Army we had in, say 1914-18 and 1939-45?

This will do and whats more they are welcome to fufill the Kaisers wish that 'Germany has its place in the sun' ie any Muslim land they fancy - off you go Fritz your turn.

 

[Crazy_FOO]

These guys are keen to change the Bundeswehr into a professional army with overseas combat/peacekeeping etc experience.

Ask various members of the current EU mission in the DRC what they think of the professional element of the Bundeswehr...they tend to agree on one thing: to never again fall under the command of the German armed forces, especially in Africa where they are completely out of their depth and culturaly clueless.

I've quite a bit of experience with the Hermans- your comments do not surprise me at all- care to expand what have you heard?

 

[fantassin]

I have not been part of this mission which is still going on as we speak.

But having spoken to a recently returned NCO with vast african ops experience, he said he had been shocked by the lack of initiative, the rigid command structure with everything being reported to Potsdam (where the German HQ is located !), the disappearing acts of senior officers who could hack the duration of the Op and found all sorts of good reasons to return to the Vaterland never to return and the institutional racism of both officers and ORs who just wouldn't have anything to do with the locals.

Considering this is going against the very grain of the French way of doing things in Africa, I am not surprized at his comments though.

I also had heard rather bad things about the involvement of a single Luftwaffe Transall in a recent Op (maybe Artemis in the Congo again but in 2003 but not sure) where they operated with so many caveats that it took more workhours to manage a single German Transall than the rest of the transport fleet which included more than half a dozen countries.

Finally, having seen a German unit being shredded by their Albanian friends during riots in Mitrovica, I have to admit I had not been impressed then and have not been impressed since....

 

[AndyPipkin]

Which would you prefer..... the large, highly efficient, very well equipped, not at all afraid of a fight German Army we had in, say 1914-18 and 1939-45?

This will do and whats more they are welcome to fufill the Kaisers wish that 'Germany has its place in the sun' ie any Muslim land they fancy - off you go Fritz your turn.

Yeah but you get a decent German army and the next thing you know they're marching down the Champs Elysee

 

[armchair_jihad]

Yeah but you get a decent German army and the next thing you know they're marching down the Champs Elysee

And?

 

[AndyPipkin]

Yeah but you get a decent German army and the next thing you know they're marching down the Champs Elysee

And?

They might not stop there...

 

[fantassin]

They'll never get that far because they'll be stopped by Dutch caravans and British shoppers on beer runs before they know it....

 

[AndyPipkin]

Mind the German Army did make a stunning return to form in Kosovo. As the NATO troops entered the country, a couple of Serbs (obviously having drowned their sorrows in Slivovic) drove up to a German platoon in a Yugo and started shooting pistols out of the windows. The Germans opened up like it was Stalingrad and killed the 2 Serbs. When their relatives turned up to collect the bodies, the German commander refused to let them, saying that the bodies must stay where they were for 24 hours "as a varning to others!"

Old habits die hard, it seems.

 

[Bugsy]

Mind the German Army did make a stunning return to form in Kosovo. As the NATO troops entered the country, a couple of Serbs (obviously having drowned their sorrows in Slivovic) drove up to a German platoon in a Yugo and started shooting pistols out of the windows. The Germans opened up like it was Stalingrad and killed the 2 Serbs. When their relatives turned up to collect the bodies, the German commander refused to let them, saying that the bodies must stay where they were for 24 hours "as a varning to others!"

Old habits die hard, it seems.

Dear Andy,

Ask yourself the question: what would British squaddies have done(and indeed, in fact, did do!) in a similar situation?

Try to advance your mindset a few decades and see the Bundeswehr (as opposed to the "Wehrmacht") in the light of more modern world developments and risks!

MsG

 

[AndyPipkin]

Bugsy, it's not the shooting that I'm on about, it's the leaving the bodies out as a "varning" that got me!