CAN I TEACH SHOOTING AS A CIVILIAN IN THE ACF

#1
My lad has joined the ACF. I noticed that his det doesn't seem to do too much shooting so have volunteered to help out. I used to hold an Army range qualification (A,B&C?) but this lapsed when I left the TA about 10 years ago. Since then I have qualified as an NRA RCO.

I don't want to become a uniformed instructor because I can't devote all the time needed but just want to get programmed in to look after the detachments shooting.

When I was a kid in the 70s and in the ATC we used to have civilian instructors who took us shooting (both small bore and full bore). Apparently the ACF doesn't work like this and the det. may not be able to take me on for the purposes outlined.

Can anyone advise what the policy is?

TIA

W
 
#2
Firstly, the ACF doesn't allow Civillians* to instruct cadets. It does have the post of Civillian Assistant, but they do not teach any part of the ACF syllabus.

Your son's ACF detachment probably doesnt do much shooting for other reasons than lack of qualified staff. There is always a good smattering of RCOs, both long and short range, plus those qul'd to use DCCT theatre ranges. All AIs who have passed the Frimley AITC are skillies now anyway.

If it's .22 shooting with the No8, the sooner that dies out, the better. The rifles are knackered, and for all the training value, you could do the same with air rifles on a portable range setup. I expect (and hope) it will be replaced with the DCCT, which is a much better training tool.

It's probably because they don't have a county or Coy Shooting Officer in post. It may also be in a hiatus due to conversion training for the A2 still not 100% completed. My sector said it would not issue the new rifle until every adult had attended the conversion training and passed the WHT.

The cadets must be getting some shooting done at camps, because without it, they cannot progress in their APC star qualifications

*All AIs are civillians really, but unlike the ATCs CIs, the expectation is different, and contractual. Hence why our AIs are paid, and ATC CIs are not.
 
#3
walt_of_the_walts said:
Firstly, the ACF doesn't allow Civillians* to instruct cadets. It does have the post of Civillian Assistant, but they do not teach any part of the ACF syllabus.Your son's ACF detachment probably doesnt do much shooting for other reasons than lack of qualified staff. There is always a good smattering of RCOs, both long and short range, plus those qul'd to use DCCT theatre ranges. All AIs who have passed the Frimley AITC are skillies now anyway.

If it's .22 shooting with the No8, the sooner that dies out, the better. The rifles are knackered, and for all the training value, you could do the same with air rifles on a portable range setup. I expect (and hope) it will be replaced with the DCCT, which is a much better training tool.

It's probably because they don't have a county or Coy Shooting Officer in post. It may also be in a hiatus due to conversion training for the A2 still not 100% completed. My sector said it would not issue the new rifle until every adult had attended the conversion training and passed the WHT.

The cadets must be getting some shooting done at camps, because without it, they cannot progress in their APC star qualifications

*All AIs are civillians really, but unlike the ATCs CIs, the expectation is different, and contractual. Hence why our AIs are paid, and ATC CIs are not.
Technically CFAV's are civillians.

I am sure I have attended training weekends where cadets have been instructed by suitably qualified and CRB'd individuals with skills not found within our units. Happy to be directed to the appropriate LAND Directive or para in the Red Book
 
#4
essexbob said:
walt_of_the_walts said:
Firstly, the ACF doesn't allow Civillians* to instruct cadets. It does have the post of Civillian Assistant, but they do not teach any part of the ACF syllabus.Your son's ACF detachment probably doesnt do much shooting for other reasons than lack of qualified staff. There is always a good smattering of RCOs, both long and short range, plus those qul'd to use DCCT theatre ranges. All AIs who have passed the Frimley AITC are skillies now anyway.

If it's .22 shooting with the No8, the sooner that dies out, the better. The rifles are knackered, and for all the training value, you could do the same with air rifles on a portable range setup. I expect (and hope) it will be replaced with the DCCT, which is a much better training tool.

It's probably because they don't have a county or Coy Shooting Officer in post. It may also be in a hiatus due to conversion training for the A2 still not 100% completed. My sector said it would not issue the new rifle until every adult had attended the conversion training and passed the WHT.

The cadets must be getting some shooting done at camps, because without it, they cannot progress in their APC star qualifications

*All AIs are civillians really, but unlike the ATCs CIs, the expectation is different, and contractual. Hence why our AIs are paid, and ATC CIs are not.
Technically CFAV's are civillians.

I am sure I have attended training weekends where cadets have been instructed by suitably qualified and CRB'd individuals with skills not found within our units. Happy to be directed to the appropriate LAND Directive or para in the Red Book
I haven't.

But that's not to say it doesn't happen with some of the more diverse activities like kayaking or rock climbing.

My point was, that its probably not a lack of qualified staff that is stopping regular shooting activities, but some other reason(s)
 
#5
if its in my county then its not just his det im 2IC my dc is company shooting officer we are both RCO's but havent been able to get any ammunition for three months, apparently there is a shortage of .22.
 
#6
walt_of_the_walts said:
Firstly, the ACF doesn't allow Civillians* to instruct cadets. It does have the post of Civillian Assistant, but they do not teach any part of the ACF syllabus.

Your son's ACF detachment probably doesnt do much shooting for other reasons than lack of qualified staff. There is always a good smattering of RCOs, both long and short range, plus those qul'd to use DCCT theatre ranges. All AIs who have passed the Frimley AITC are skillies now anyway.

If it's .22 shooting with the No8, the sooner that dies out, the better. The rifles are knackered, and for all the training value, you could do the same with air rifles on a portable range setup. I expect (and hope) it will be replaced with the DCCT, which is a much better training tool.

It's probably because they don't have a county or Coy Shooting Officer in post. It may also be in a hiatus due to conversion training for the A2 still not 100% completed. My sector said it would not issue the new rifle until every adult had attended the conversion training and passed the WHT.

The cadets must be getting some shooting done at camps, because without it, they cannot progress in their APC star qualifications

*All AIs are civillians really, but unlike the ATCs CIs, the expectation is different, and contractual. Hence why our AIs are paid, and ATC CIs are not.
They don't allow civilians either!
 
#7
Twizzlelehope said:
walt_of_the_walts said:
Firstly, the ACF doesn't allow Civillians* to instruct cadets. It does have the post of Civillian Assistant, but they do not teach any part of the ACF syllabus.

Your son's ACF detachment probably doesnt do much shooting for other reasons than lack of qualified staff. There is always a good smattering of RCOs, both long and short range, plus those qul'd to use DCCT theatre ranges. All AIs who have passed the Frimley AITC are skillies now anyway.

If it's .22 shooting with the No8, the sooner that dies out, the better. The rifles are knackered, and for all the training value, you could do the same with air rifles on a portable range setup. I expect (and hope) it will be replaced with the DCCT, which is a much better training tool.

It's probably because they don't have a county or Coy Shooting Officer in post. It may also be in a hiatus due to conversion training for the A2 still not 100% completed. My sector said it would not issue the new rifle until every adult had attended the conversion training and passed the WHT.

The cadets must be getting some shooting done at camps, because without it, they cannot progress in their APC star qualifications

*All AIs are civillians really, but unlike the ATCs CIs, the expectation is different, and contractual. Hence why our AIs are paid, and ATC CIs are not.
They don't allow civilians either!
Who doesn't? The ATC? I did hear about some new directive from HQ Air Cadets that basically said no activity unless a VRT Officer is present. Sounded like unworkable nonsense to me.
 
#8
walt_of_the_walts said:
Twizzlelehope said:
walt_of_the_walts said:
Firstly, the ACF doesn't allow Civillians* to instruct cadets. It does have the post of Civillian Assistant, but they do not teach any part of the ACF syllabus.

Your son's ACF detachment probably doesnt do much shooting for other reasons than lack of qualified staff. There is always a good smattering of RCOs, both long and short range, plus those qul'd to use DCCT theatre ranges. All AIs who have passed the Frimley AITC are skillies now anyway.

If it's .22 shooting with the No8, the sooner that dies out, the better. The rifles are knackered, and for all the training value, you could do the same with air rifles on a portable range setup. I expect (and hope) it will be replaced with the DCCT, which is a much better training tool.

It's probably because they don't have a county or Coy Shooting Officer in post. It may also be in a hiatus due to conversion training for the A2 still not 100% completed. My sector said it would not issue the new rifle until every adult had attended the conversion training and passed the WHT.

The cadets must be getting some shooting done at camps, because without it, they cannot progress in their APC star qualifications

*All AIs are civillians really, but unlike the ATCs CIs, the expectation is different, and contractual. Hence why our AIs are paid, and ATC CIs are not.
They don't allow civilians either!
Who doesn't? The ATC? I did hear about some new directive from HQ Air Cadets that basically said no activity unless a VRT Officer is present. Sounded like unworkable nonsense to me.
I could believe it.

Only having commissioned ones in charge of things probably makes court cases easier when kids get creamed.
 
#9
the simplest answer would be to approach the detachment commander, tell him your thoughts and ask him to speak to county HQ, as long as you are suitably CRB'd and qualifications etc check out then I would see no reason not to allow it.
However as has been mentioned it may not be a shortage of qualified staff but a shortage of equipment/facilities that is the cause. Personally I dont believe that the cadets do enough shooting, when I was a cadet nearly every detachment had its own air rifles and indoor/outdoor ranges were run at least once a month. Its about the only thing that differentiates us from the Scouts :soldier:
As for the lack of .22 ammo, we were told by our county QM that there was no shortage of it, as its cheap and not required by the regular/TA forces for training so is in plentiful supply.
 
#10
exsysop said:
the simplest answer would be to approach the detachment commander, tell him your thoughts and ask him to speak to county HQ, as long as you are suitably CRB'd and qualifications etc check out then I would see no reason not to allow it.
However as has been mentioned it may not be a shortage of qualified staff but a shortage of equipment/facilities that is the cause. Personally I dont believe that the cadets do enough shooting, when I was a cadet nearly every detachment had its own air rifles and indoor/outdoor ranges were run at least once a month. Its about the only thing that differentiates us from the Scouts :soldier:
As for the lack of .22 ammo, we were told by our county QM that there was no shortage of it, as its cheap and not required by the regular/TA forces for training so is in plentiful supply.
Really - our allocation has been cut, citing there isnt any in the system.
 
#11
Notwithstanding all the above advice, I did exactly what you did when my son joined the ACF

A civilian at the time, but with SA(B)90, I "became" a CI, with the requisite CRB checks. I ran the indoor .22 range using the No8 rifle. With only 2 cadets firing at any one time, running this type of range on your own is perfectly safe and do-able (I don't know what the ACF rules are now - I think it might require x2 SA(B)90 qualled people).
 
#12
WotW's, the No 8's aren't usually knackered. If they are it's because of moronic instructors unnecessarily dry firing them, applying the safety catch with the bolt open, not cleaning them (because the ammunition is self cleaning :? !!!!) and generally abusing the rifles when they are in transit.

The reason that Cadets can't use them properly, is due to the fact that Cadets are too small, or not strong enough to shoulder them properly. To fire the No 8 well, and to pass the ACF shooting qualifications with it, the firer needs to be able to shoot well (as opposed to the L98 on an ETR, where hitting the stones in front of the target counts!!). From personal experience over many years, the Cadets can't shoot, because the adults can't shoot.

Additionally, we aren't given all of the ancillary equipment to use the N0 8's anyway, i.e. the foresight adjusting tool (I've seen one; very fleetingly; in 22 years of adult service) and the match sights and slings etc.

It generally isn't the fault of the rifle!




Inky
 
#13
Inky,

I agree. I enjoyed firing the No8 and found it pretty accurate. The ones I used weren't at all knackered, and a bit of bore brushing and a lick of oil on the bolt did the job admirably (that's all they had at the det anyway).

My experience was that good coaching on the No8 = good shooting. It was really pleasing to see the improvement in shooting in the kids over just a few weeks, even the ones who at first seemed too small to support the weapon!

I'd love a No8 if I could be bothered with the rigmarole of obtaining a Section 5 licence....

D
 
#14
therealbigdizzle said:
walt_of_the_walts said:
Who doesn't? The ATC? I did hear about some new directive from HQ Air Cadets that basically said no activity unless a VRT Officer is present. Sounded like unworkable nonsense to me.
I could believe it.

Only having commissioned ones in charge of things probably makes court cases easier when kids get creamed.
ATC = RAF regulations, not Army ones.

Similar maybe, but different.
 
#15
exsysop said:
the simplest answer would be to approach the detachment commander, tell him your thoughts and ask him to speak to county HQ, as long as you are suitably CRB'd and qualifications etc check out then I would see no reason not to allow it.
You might not, but it is the 1-Star Officer at HQ Land who will be in the cack in the (unlikely) event of an accident.

Having - in the wake of a number of Cadet injury/fatality cases - spent several weeks researching such matters on his behal;f a few years ago, I am confident of that..

Trust me, liability is taken very seriuously: you need to know for 100% certain sure that anything you might do with the ACF, has you AND the Chain of Command properly covered in the event of an oo-nasty.

Otherwise heads will roll - and one of them will be yours.

The opinion of a part-time ACF officer, if you will forgive me saying so, should not be taken as gospel.

You could write direct to G3 Training (Cadets), either at HQ Land, or perhaps more appropriately to G3 Training (Cadets) at your Regional Div HQ.

Then you will get an answer that is rooted in policy, not (as this site clearly says in its name) RUMOUR.
 
#16
It pretty simple really. The only folk allowed to teach SAA in the ACF are either SAA qual members of the cadet training team - Regular soldiers with a regular Skilly qual - or ACF Adults who have done the course at Frimley, which allows them to teach on the Cadet range of weapons. Given the small numbers of CTT staff the vast majority of instruction is by ACF staff.

I'd suggest that if you want to help out with your sons Det then sign on as an Adult Instructor. If you make it clear early on in the process that your time is limited and that you want to concentrate on SAA then no-one will think any the less of you.

In the current environment any attempts at back-door "local arrangements" etc will be stamped on from a very great height. Don't even think about it.
 
#17
DavetheApe said:
Inky,

I agree. I enjoyed firing the No8 and found it pretty accurate. The ones I used weren't at all knackered, and a bit of bore brushing and a lick of oil on the bolt did the job admirably (that's all they had at the det anyway).

My experience was that It was really pleasing to see the improvement in shooting in the kids over just a few weeks, even the ones who at first seemed too small to support the weapon!


D
Inkerman and Dave, I agree 100% with what you are saying but the rifles are knackered through neglect, not just by ACF personnel, but also the system generally. ABRO/SERCO local armourers aren't servicing these weapons correctly because they are running out of spares and this is a weapon two generation removed from their current skills. As for 'self lubricating', this is mistaken as 'self cleaning' so no-one ever put a pull through down it or de-clagged the mech. Hangfires 99.99% of the time are not due to faulty ammo but dirty firing pin and bolt. I was given a rifle and told it 'wont group or hold zero' 20 minutes later I was shooting cloverleafs with it. All I did was tighten up the sights and clean out the bore. You could have grown spuds in it it was so minging.

good coaching on the No8 = good shooting.
100% with you. How many ACF adults actually know how to coach? Very few. Too many think shouting the drills at a cadet is coaching. No wonder there is so little interest in some parts of the ACF for shooting. Good coaching produces results very quickly. From novice to ACF marksman in a weekend for some of my proteges.

From personal experience over many years, the Cadets can't shoot, because the adults can't shoot.
Very true. But politics plays a part. There are many staff who just despair at the ignorance of shooting skills from senior staff, but an SMI who knows all about 'self cleaning ammo' and whose last WHT was on an SLR will not listen to those younger and currently trained. I've got the experience, the course passes and even a few competition medals r trophys, but I havent got a CFM and bar a big crown so my experience and ability doesn't count.

However the situation is improving. The A2 is requiring everybody to start from scratch and sing from the same songsheet, so I'll hang in there.

I'd love a No8 if I could be bothered with the rigmarole of obtaining a Section 5 licence....
Eh? You can own a no8 on a section one. Thousands already do. Although they are strictly for Enfield nutters and can be very pricey. Spares are like rocking horse shit too, and the dealers charge a king's ransom for them.
Its pretty simple really. The only folk allowed to teach SAA in the ACF are either SAA qual members of the cadet training team - Regular soldiers with a regular Skilly qual - or ACF Adults who have done the course at Frimley, which allows them to teach on the Cadet range of weapons. Given the small numbers of CTT staff the vast majority of instruction is by ACF staff.

I'd suggest that if you want to help out with your sons Det then sign on as an Adult Instructor. If you make it clear early on in the process that your time is limited and that you want to concentrate on SAA then no-one will think any the less of you.

In the current environment any attempts at back-door "local arrangements" etc will be stamped on from a very great height. Don't even think about it
Spot on. I don't think they will want you to specialise too much too early on though. But I don't think they will say no thanks, jog on.
 
#18
Stonker said:
exsysop said:
the simplest answer would be to approach the detachment commander, tell him your thoughts and ask him to speak to county HQ, as long as you are suitably CRB'd and qualifications etc check out then I would see no reason not to allow it.
You might not, but it is the 1-Star Officer at HQ Land who will be in the cack in the (unlikely) event of an accident.

Having - in the wake of a number of Cadet injury/fatality cases - spent several weeks researching such matters on his behal;f a few years ago, I am confident of that..

Trust me, liability is taken very seriuously: you need to know for 100% certain sure that anything you might do with the ACF, has you AND the Chain of Command properly covered in the event of an oo-nasty.

Otherwise heads will roll - and one of them will be yours.

The opinion of a part-time ACF officer, if you will forgive me saying so, should not be taken as gospel.

You could write direct to G3 Training (Cadets), either at HQ Land, or perhaps more appropriately to G3 Training (Cadets) at your Regional Div HQ.

Then you will get an answer that is rooted in policy, not (as this site clearly says in its name) RUMOUR.


Hence why I said speak to his County HQ as they have ultimate say in the region (subject to approval by HQ LAND). If the answer comes back as no, then so be it. But he aint gonna know until he asks and its looked into through his chain of command.
At no point did I suggest it was a foregone conclusion it would get approved.
 
#20
exsysop said:
County HQ . . have ultimate say in the region (subject to approval by HQ LAND).
Final say - except where their say is not final.

Translation: you need to know that whatever you do is formally approved by HQ Land: if it is exp0licitly covered in an existing Regulation, that is dandy. If it ain't - informal approval from a lower HQ would be insufficient, in which case you need HQ Land to say, formally, if it is OK or not.
 

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