Cameron to Open thousands of Comprehensives

saintstone said:
ashie said:
whitecity said:
ashie said:
Another straw-man argument eh! Did I mention "higher" educated children. I am talking about children educated at elite private schools. It distorts society. It limits social mobility. It perpetuates elitism. Does the phrase "self-perpetuating oligarchy" ring a bell?
See?

ashie's argument has NOTHING to do with standards of education, parents' desire to see the child recieves the best opportunity, nor even money. It's all about getting rid of "elite" private education.
It's not about money? Pull the other one.

And yes, I would get rid of elite private education.
Why, if it works?? Having money is all about using it, if you were loaded, would you drive about in a shed or a decent motor?? I think I know the answer and the same applies to education, if you can afford to pay to get that bit extra, why not??
I could have sent my kids to Private Schools. I chose not to. They have turned out well-educated and well-balanced and I was there to help them develop as people and in their education.

I like the idea that parents should assist in their children's' education unless they're rich enough to pack them off to school.
 
Anything, anything has to be better than the 'Non-Education' of the Bliar epoch.

If anything Mr. Cameron has in mind is half, or even a quarter, as good as Eton, then 'bring it on'.

'Education, education, education' - spew, spew, spew!
 
saintstone said:
Why, if it works?? Having money is all about using it, if you were loaded, would you drive about in a shed or a decent motor?? I think I know the answer and the same applies to education, if you can afford to pay to get that bit extra, why not??
ashie seems to believe (well that's what I've got from readinbg this and other threads), that everybody must be treated exactly the same - irrespective of ability and circumstance. Moreover, everybody should receive exactly the same take-home pay to iron out 'wealth inbalances' in society. The net result is that all citizens become 'equal' and the scourge of 'social injustice' is resoundly defeated.

This system was of course experimented with, and failed. It simply lead to a different kind of heirarchy based upon political or personal patronage: individual success was based upon loyalty to the 'system' or the individual hand controlling the 'system'.
 
bobthedog said:
Ashie - In what way does somebody sending his/her children to a private school distort society. Oh its their money and you think they should be assisted in spending their money by you and your socialist chums. Every child educated privately leaves more money in the state system for others to share out. Their parents pay tax and choose not to use it, or that portion that is allocated to education. Its a pity that the education service is so inept at providing a good standard of education, unlike those of our competitor countries in the EU, where I have pointed out that they have maintained their selective education systems.

Not only that they enforce attendance at schools - rigorously. There are no "term time" holidays taken, as it is strictly forbidden except for exceptional circumstances (not holidays) and only covers family crises such as funerals.
But there is no tradition of private and public schools in the Netherlands is there? I know there are some like the British Schools and the International Schools. But that's about it, no?
 
Right, I am a Grammar school erk who passed his 11 plus with little effort.

I went to the school for about a year, I didn't bother to turn up much after that because there was work to do on the farm. I was officially binned at the age of 15 years with a fine of £10, for breach of contract.

Without O' Levels or A' Levels, I managed to secure a good job in London.

As a result of this my children have been educated privately. It is the best start you can give them. Education goes up and not down. Support the winners in society and not the losers.
 
lsquared said:
Anything, anything has to be better than the 'Non-Education' of the Bliar epoch.

If anything Mr. Cameron has in mind is half, or even a quarter, as good as Eton, then 'bring it on'.

'Education, education, education' - spew, spew, spew!
You know it's a wonder we ever produce any decent tertiary students in this country what with everything being so bad and all.

That's sarcasm, that is!
 
Ashie - there are private and fee paying schools in the Netherlands, as there are in Germany too. However the quality of the state system is very good so most people use those.
 
JoseyWales said:
Right, I am a Grammar school erk who passed his 11 plus with little effort.

I went to the school for about a year, I didn't bother to turn up much after that because there was work to do on the farm. I was officially binned at the age of 15 years with a fine of £10 for breach of contract.

Without O' Levels or A' Levels, I managed to secure a good job in London.

As a result of this my children have been educated privately. It is the best start you can give them. Education goes up and not down. Support the winners in society and not the losers.
In your opinion it's the best start you can give them.

Winners are those who struggle and overcome odds to succeed, not those who are handed "the best start".
 
bobthedog said:
Ashie - there are private and fee paying schools in the Netherlands, as there are in Germany too. However the quality of the state system is very good so most people use those.
Exactly, so there is no tradition of sending people to them. At the risk of appearing to agree with you again, we should be aiming at the quality of the Dutch system.
 
ashie said:
JoseyWales said:
Right, I am a Grammar school erk who passed his 11 plus with little effort.

I went to the school for about a year, I didn't bother to turn up much after that because there was work to do on the farm. I was officially binned at the age of 15 years with a fine of £10 for breach of contract.

Without O' Levels or A' Levels, I managed to secure a good job in London.

As a result of this my children have been educated privately. It is the best start you can give them. Education goes up and not down. Support the winners in society and not the losers.
In your opinion it's the best start you can give them.

Winners are those who struggle and overcome odds to succeed, not those who are handed "the best start".
You have missed the point entirely.
 
ashie said:
Exactly, so there is no tradition of sending people to them. At the risk of appearing to agree with you again, we should be aiming at the quality and organisation of the Dutch system.
And the latter point, I also agree.

But private schools do not prevent the state system from reaching that aspiration. They could/should be doing of their own accord.

Your argument that individuals in government are unwilling to lift the state schools up to that standard because those same individuals enjoyed a private education - and are thus ignorant/inexperienced of the poor standard in the state system - is tosh.

You demand others write facts, and not opinions. Your posts contain no more facts, and no less opinion, than any other.

Where are you 'facts' that UK state education is so poor because our elected folk are former private school pupils?
 
whitecity said:
ashie said:
Exactly, so there is no tradition of sending people to them. At the risk of appearing to agree with you again, we should be aiming at the quality and organisation of the Dutch system.
And the latter point, I also agree.

But private schools do not prevent the state system from reaching that aspiration. They could/should be doing of their own accord.

Your argument that individuals in government are unwilling to lift the state schools up to that standard because those same individuals enjoyed a private education - and are thus ignorant/inexperienced of the poor standard in the state system - is tosh.

You demand others write facts, and not opinions. Your posts contain no more facts, and no less opinion, than any other.

Where are you 'facts' that UK state education is so poor because our elected folk are former private school pupils?
That was an informed opinion.
 
The reason that these private schools exist is like our own country the Dutch have people working abroad, such as in the forces and Diplomatic service, and not least of which is the number of engineers working permanently overseas in countries which cannot provide an adequate education (yes it does happen not just limited to UK) so the private schools are operated as boarding schools (similar in many ways to ours), they follow the state curriculum, and have to take the same end of school exams as if the child had attended a normal state school.

However, after 12 years of Labour education policy, with all the emphasis that Bliar placed on education when he came to power, he didnt need to look very far to find systems that work and meet the needs of children, colleges, universities and not least employers. That we have come to have this conversation after 12 years of New Labour in power, and be agreeing that we need to aspire to the systems as per our European neighbours shows how much wasted time, money and not least opportunity has taken place.

European education is selective at age 11, and while there is always a possibility of being downstreamed if the pupil is unable to keep up (they can do a multiple of 3rd or 4th year if they fail their exams at that stage) the opportunity also exists to jump forward to a higher class of schooling at any time, should it be felt that the selected educational path is failing to meet the pupil's ability.
 
ashie said:
That was an informed opinion.
Or maybe something copied from the comments section of the mysterious "Daily Vile" that you read.

I'd like the UK to have a first rate state education system. I guess you agree to that too. Trouble is, the UK doesn't have such a thing.

We disagree on two points: what steps should/could be taken to rectify that; and, whether preventing private education in the meantime is helpful or wise.
 
bobthedog said:
The reason that these private schools exist is like our own country the Dutch have people working abroad, such as in the forces and Diplomatic service, and not least of which is the number of engineers working permanently overseas in countries which cannot provide an adequate education (yes it does happen not just limited to UK) so the private schools are operated as boarding schools (similar in many ways to ours), they follow the state curriculum, and have to take the same end of school exams as if the child had attended a normal state school.

However, after 12 years of Labour education policy, with all the emphasis that Bliar placed on education when he came to power, he didnt need to look very far to find systems that work and meet the needs of children, colleges, universities and not least employers. That we have come to have this conversation after 12 years of New Labour in power, and be agreeing that we need to aspire to the systems as per our European neighbours shows how much wasted time, money and not least opportunity has taken place.

European education is selective at age 11, and while there is always a possibility of being downstreamed if the pupil is unable to keep up (they can do a multiple of 3rd or 4th year if they fail their exams at that stage) the opportunity also exists to jump forward to a higher class of schooling at any time, should it be felt that the selected educational path is failing to meet the pupil's ability.
One of the strategies used in France and Germany (or at least it was) and South Africa (no doubt many other places too) was the requirement for students to attain a certain level before they could progress to the next year. In the UK, students continue to the next year regardless of ability and achievement. I'm lead to believe that the reason we don't follow that system is for 'social' not 'educational' reasons.

I have never understood how an education system can expect a student who has failed to achieve at a lower level, is going to miraculously cope at a higher level.
 
WC the constant monitoring of pupil's performance is a fundamental of schooling in Europe, if you get 2 weeks of bad results it usually means your parents are brought in to discuss remedial methods and coaching. Certainly remember when my nephew was going through 3rd and 4th year he was worried that his best friend may be back streamed by another year. The threat was enough to get him to pull his finger out and succeed at his exams.
 
whitecity said:
ashie said:
That was an informed opinion.
Or maybe something copied from the comments section of the mysterious "Daily Vile" that you read.

I'd like the UK to have a first rate state education system. I guess you agree to that too. Trouble is, the UK doesn't have such a thing.

We disagree on two points: what steps should/could be taken to rectify that; and, whether preventing private education in the meantime is helpful or wise.
Or whether being able to pay for a child's education is to be compared to proper parental support of a child's education.
 
bobthedog said:
WC the constant monitoring of pupil's performance is a fundamental of schooling in Europe, if you get 2 weeks of bad results it usually means your parents are brought in to discuss remedial methods and coaching. Certainly remember when my nephew was going through 3rd and 4th year he was worried that his best friend may be back streamed by another year. The threat was enough to get him to pull his finger out and succeed at his exams.
I believe that it's impossible to hold children back in the UK as out system is based on age. But I don't think, for example, that 11 year-olds who are functionally illiterate should be allowed to begin secondary education. It''s bad for them and bad for the school.
 
ashie said:
whitecity said:
ashie said:
That was an informed opinion.
Or maybe something copied from the comments section of the mysterious "Daily Vile" that you read.

I'd like the UK to have a first rate state education system. I guess you agree to that too. Trouble is, the UK doesn't have such a thing.

We disagree on two points: what steps should/could be taken to rectify that; and, whether preventing private education in the meantime is helpful or wise.
Or whether being able to pay for a child's education is to be compared to proper parental support of a child's education.
I went to a public school at my parents expense. Funnily enough, I still got a huge amount of support from them, as I would have done had I gone to a comprehensive. However, not everybody has middle class professionals as parents. Some dont care enough to support their childs education and some don't have the time. Trying to base an education system on parental support is doomed to failiure, particularly when we regard academic success as the only priority.
 
jew_unit said:
ashie said:
whitecity said:
ashie said:
That was an informed opinion.
Or maybe something copied from the comments section of the mysterious "Daily Vile" that you read.

I'd like the UK to have a first rate state education system. I guess you agree to that too. Trouble is, the UK doesn't have such a thing.

We disagree on two points: what steps should/could be taken to rectify that; and, whether preventing private education in the meantime is helpful or wise.
Or whether being able to pay for a child's education is to be compared to proper parental support of a child's education.
I went to a public school at my parents expense. Funnily enough, I still got a huge amount of support from them, as I would have done had I gone to a comprehensive. However, not everybody has middle class professionals as parents. Some dont care enough to support their childs education and some don't have the time. Trying to base an education system on parental support is doomed to failiure, particularly when we regard academic success as the only priority.
Proving that there is no quick or easy answer. You're right about exams being the be all and end all. When I were a nipper, we had people leaving school with few qualifications, but a reasonable education. Not sure that's true today.
 

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