CALLING THOSE IN NORTH CYPRUS

T

taffy01

Guest
#1
Hi,
There was a big story the other day, one not highly broadcast within the UK media but as swept through Cyprus like wildfire. A British retired couple, the Orams, lost their fight in the UK courts to save their villa from being bulldozed. It was an important trial, one that in my own humble opinion will effect the ongoing unification talks. I will not go into the history behind the case, for those living in the South (Myself included) and those living in the North will be well aware of it. Basically it is land dispute caught up in deep politics.
Quite a few Servicemen stay on in Cyprus, at the Resettlement brief there was at least one bloke who had bought a place in the North. I was wondering how they felt on the issue. Even though we share the same nationality i have found that expats residing in the North and South have differant outlooks, sometimes diverse, sometimes hostile.
Any comments welcome
 

oldbaldy

LE
Moderator
#2
T

taffy01

Guest
#3
I read the local papers and the UK online press i was just after a down to earth Brit view.
Thanks Anyway
 
#4
taffy01 said:
Hi,
There was a big story the other day, one not highly broadcast within the UK media but as swept through Cyprus like wildfire. A British retired couple, the Orams, lost their fight in the UK courts to save their villa from being bulldozed. It was an important trial, one that in my own humble opinion will effect the ongoing unification talks. I will not go into the history behind the case, for those living in the South (Myself included) and those living in the North will be well aware of it. Basically it is land dispute caught up in deep politics.
Quite a few Servicemen stay on in Cyprus, at the Resettlement brief there was at least one bloke who had bought a place in the North. I was wondering how they felt on the issue. Even though we share the same nationality i have found that expats residing in the North and South have differant outlooks, sometimes diverse, sometimes hostile.
Any comments welcome
I just knew that this would come back and bite the Expats one day! Having had lots of dealings with folk from both side of the divide about lost land ect, even contemplated buying land there myself but in hindsight I'm glad I didn't now.
 
#6
There is a popular liberal Radio "Echo of Moscow" that yesturday scrutinized this case in the program "The Case".

To make a judgement let's regard a similar situation. Lands belonged to Georgian refugees in Abkhazia are sold to Russians. Would it be illegal or not? I believe that it is illegal.

I'm sure that the Orams were well aware that the land was stolen. But the way what is its previous 'owner' who sold it? Why not to prosucute the 'owner' for theft and fraud?

Alsacien said:
How can this decision be enforced, the UK has no jurisdiction in Northern Cyprus and the EU does not recognise it?
The EU regards Nothern Cyprus as occupied part of Cyprus (thus occupied part of the EU). Ironically the occupant itself knock to the doors of the EU and anyway Turkey must obey court ruling if it ever wish to join the EU.
 
#7
Alsacien said:
How can this decision be enforced, the UK has no jurisdiction in Northern Cyprus and the EU does not recognise it?
It can't, but should a settlement ever be reached, I can't see the TRNC govt turning down EU membership to preserve a house belonging to a couple of foreign pensioners.

I assume their pensions etc are paid by UK Plc; perhaps that is the means by which further pressure to comply may be put on them.
 

Alsacien

MIA
Moderator
#8
Turkey will never be a member of the EU, they may at some point get some special trading status but that is it.

Shame we are not interested in other land issues to such a high degree - like Gaza, and one for you Sergey, Russian occupation of Finnish land in the Karelian Isthmus and Karelia itself.
What about Silesian land now owned by Poland? Sudetan land now owned by Czech Republic?

For every Greek that left their land in Nothern Cyprus, at least one Turk went the opposite way. Many Turks who had lost land in the south were compensated with land in the North - maybe a few should start some UK court cases.....?
 
#9
This is the inherent danger of buying in N Cyprus. There is no real land registry, unlike RoC which has land registry modelled on the UK system. I never understood how the Orams won the first case, except there was a strong political element, wife of then UK PM acting for them. It will please some of our friends who intend reclaiming their hotel in Kyrenia, if and when normalisation takes place. First round of "intensive talks" was reported to have achieved nothing but progress is hidden by "nothing is agreed until everything is agreed"
 
#10
Alsacien said:
Turkey will never be a member of the EU, they may at some point get some special trading status but that is it.
No, but if the Annan plan had succeeded, the TRNC would have been reincorporated into the Republic of Cyprus, and thus would be part of the EU (unless, as is highly possible, I've misunderstood it).



Alsacien said:
For every Greek that left their land in Nothern Cyprus, at least one Turk went the opposite way
Really? In 1960, 78% of the population were Greek Cypriot, with another 4% assorted (Armenian, Lebanese) Christians. think the Turkish Cypriot population of TRNC is now outnumbered by post-1974 Anatolian settlers- much to Turkish Cypriot chagrin.

 
T

taffy01

Guest
#11
Rumpelstiltskin said:
Alsacien said:
How can this decision be enforced, the UK has no jurisdiction in Northern Cyprus and the EU does not recognise it?
It can't, but should a settlement ever be reached, I can't see the TRNC govt turning down EU membership to preserve a house belonging to a couple of foreign pensioners.

I assume their pensions etc are paid by UK Plc; perhaps that is the means by which further pressure to comply may be put on them.
The Orams live in the UK, they built the Villa as a Holiday home. If they do not comply with the UK Judgement they will be in contempt of court. In short if they do not act they could face further fines or inprisonment within their own Country.Also thier UK assets are at risk. Thats why it is important, up until now they ignored all other legal bodies.
 
#12
Alsacien said:
Turkey will never be a member of the EU, they may at some point get some special trading status but that is it.
First of all never say never. And Turkey could be told to obey EU court ruling as a precondition to any negotiations.

Alsacien said:
Shame we are not interested in other land issues to such a high degree - like Gaza, and one for you Sergey, Russian occupation of Finnish land in the Karelian Isthmus and Karelia itself.
What about Silesian land now owned by Poland? Sudetan land now owned by Czech Republic?
Not Gaza exactly but there are similar problems in the ME, in the occupied (by Israel) territories. For example, Lebanese citizens are lawfull owners of land in and around Sheba Farms. But the lands are under Israeli occupation and Israel doesn't recognise the rights of the owners.

As for South Karelia then there is a border treaty between Finland and the Soviet Union. It is a legal basis not to recognise property claims. But there is no border treaty between Russia and Japan. Thus previous Japanese property owners in S.Kurile island and S.Sakhalin have not lost hope (but I fear only in theory).

As for Silesia, Pommerania, East Prussia, Sudettenland then then there are treaties including Helsinki final act.

Alsacien said:
For every Greek that left their land in Nothern Cyprus, at least one Turk went the opposite way. Many Turks who had lost land in the south were compensated with land in the North - maybe a few should start some UK court cases.....?
It would be logical, why not?
 
#13
KGB_resident said:
Alsacien said:
For every Greek that left their land in Nothern Cyprus, at least one Turk went the opposite way. Many Turks who had lost land in the south were compensated with land in the North - maybe a few should start some UK court cases.....?
It would be logical, why not?
It would be logical, and fair. However, the TRNC would lose more (in terms of land) than they would gain by this (see map above) and so, without being cynical about human nature, I doubt they'll be pushing for it...
 
#14
It is out of the theme, however not so far



http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/slideshow/photo//100121/ids_photos_wl/r2903257726.jpg/

Interior Ministry officers stand guard while an excavator demolishes a mansion in Rechnik settlement in Moscow January 21, 2010. Illegally built residences were demolished during a police operation in Rechnik settlement in compliance with a court order and with the Federal Court Bailiffs Service's support, Interfax news agency reported
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20100121/157634869.html

It was the dead of night, and all was quiet in the rural settlement on the Moskva River, but the residents were still on guard to keep the surrounding city out of their small piece of paradise.

The city says the people have built homes on the land illegally, but the residents argue they were granted the land during the Soviet era and the courts should recognize their right to live there.

As they have done for many nights, on Wednesday they blocked the entrance to the Rechnik settlement, a rare slice of country life within the confines of the Russian capital, but on Thursday morning the bailiffs came with a court demolition order.
It is Kremplin's agitprop.

Really the authorities violate the Law. Soviet citizens were allowed to build holiday houses in this place in 1958. It was outside Moscow. There exists a law that allows the owner of such houses to register property rights for land but... it is too expensive land. There are villas of minesters and super-rich around. There is an elite golf club and the authourities decided to remove 'ordinary' Russians from their land and demolish their houses. For this purpose this piece of land was declared as 'specially guarded'. The owners of the houses were denied right to register their land owning rights. And now...

Morale: the 'Law' is alway of the side of the strongest... and most immoral.
 
#15
Rumpelstiltskin said:
I can't see the TRNC govt turning down EU membership
This is one of the big stumbling blocks with the whole charade. The TRNC is classed as Turkish, so unless Turkey has full EU membership, neither can the TRNC. The problem with some of the current settlement proposals that are being put forward by Mr Ali Talat would give the occupants of the TRNC full EU rights, e.g. Freedom of movement and the freedom of trade without borders, without actually being part of Europe or without making any contribution to any sort of European Fund.

This could/would lead to The Republic of Cyprus being a gateway to Europe for everyone that sees fit to either take up residence in the north or that can buy a Turkish Passport.
 
#16
Much of the land lost by "Turkish" Cypriots is on UK Sovereign Base Land and although occupied by "Greek" Cypriots there are strict rules on development, re-sale and usage. When the UK offered to give back UKSB territory as part of the Annan plan, much of it was that same land.

The wronged parties (according to law) are the dis-possessed Cypriots, now EU citizens. Those responsible in law are now deemed to be the buyers - the Omrams who fortuitously are also EU citizens. Under a bit of arcane EU legislation if one EU Citizen wrongs another, then they can be held accountable in law in any EU state - it matters not a jot where the wrong happened. All other EU states are then obliged to recognize the legal judgement and enforce it. Anyone who claims the EU cannot influence or dictate law to a sovereign state need to look at this judgement.

Any legal expert (other than "Turkish" Cypriot ones) would caution against buying property in a land which has no legal recognition or juristriction. The Omrans decided to ignore that advice because they spotted a wonderful bargain. Anything that looks too good to be true .......!
 
#17
As this couple live in Hove, there has been considerable local coverage in the Brighton Argus (who came out in support for the couple). The fact is, after the Turkish invasion in 1974, enticing offers starting appearing for packets of land/properties in the Turkish occupied zone. Both the Foreign Office at the time, the media and most of the agencies selling overseas property advised against any dealings in the area as title deed could not be established. That has been the position ever since - the Orams cannot say that they were unaware of the situation (unless they are blind and deaf) and appear to have taken a chance that backfired on them.

Save any sympathy for those that shelled out in Spain (who are, allegedly, under EU law) and found that a corrupt local council was in cahoots with corrupt lawyers and developers and found their retirement villas being pulled down.

As for reclaiming previously occupied land, not a few people in the former East Germany found themselves dispossessed by claimants from the west after reunification.
 
#18
mnairb said:
As this couple live in Hove, there has been considerable local coverage in the Brighton Argus (who came out in support for the couple). The fact is, after the Turkish invasion in 1974, enticing offers starting appearing for packets of land/properties in the Turkish occupied zone. Both the Foreign Office at the time, the media and most of the agencies selling overseas property advised against any dealings in the area as title deed could not be established. That has been the position ever since - the Orams cannot say that they were unaware of the situation (unless they are blind and deaf) and appear to have taken a chance that backfired on them.
What's happened in the TRNC is not much different to the Mugabe Land Grab in Zimbabwe.

There were/are and still are, sufficient warnings from the FO to people about the dangers in buying property in Northern Cyprus. Plus, anyone that had bothered to do an ounce of research before “Buying the Dream” WOULD have come across even more info about the dangers involved.

I mean, displaced Cypriots haven't been living in Refugee settlements for the last 36 years for no good reason. The truth is, is that most from the UK went there after watching 'Amada Fcuking Lamb' telling them on prime-time TV just how fecking easy and cheap it is to buy property there, without stopping to think about why it's so fcuking cheap..

Anyone that didn't know, nor understand, the dangers of buying property in a 'country' that doesn't exist, deserves everything that they get.

All land belongs to someone. But in this case, the land belongs to people that had it stolen from them in 1974. Would you standby and watch some cnut steal your land and then watch them build a home on it without getting just a little bit pisssed..? I very much doubt it.
 
#19
Serves them (TRNC) fcuking right and I have not an ounce of sympathy for any idiot that was stupid enough to buy a property there. Regrdless of how much they were deceived, lied to, cheated or given false promises that the property was on "owned" land, it was only cheap for two fcuking reason's; the land was stolen and the country doesn't exist.

North’s property market in free fall

ESTATE Agents in the north have conceded that the once-booming property market is in freefall and teetering on the brink of collapse as a result of the Orams ruling.

News of the verdict spread like wildfire, leaving thousands of Britons and other Europeans reeling at the developments in London. Many, realising their property investments were no-longer cast-iron, raced to place their properties on the open market.

In an effort to calm down worried residents, the chairman of the Turkish Cypriot Chamber of Commerce Gunay Cerkez said that Britons, who are panicking at the verdict, must receive urgent guarantees - in an effort to stop them from abandoning their homes in the north. Full Article
 

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