Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by taffy01, Jan 22, 2010.

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  1. Hi,
    There was a big story the other day, one not highly broadcast within the UK media but as swept through Cyprus like wildfire. A British retired couple, the Orams, lost their fight in the UK courts to save their villa from being bulldozed. It was an important trial, one that in my own humble opinion will effect the ongoing unification talks. I will not go into the history behind the case, for those living in the South (Myself included) and those living in the North will be well aware of it. Basically it is land dispute caught up in deep politics.
    Quite a few Servicemen stay on in Cyprus, at the Resettlement brief there was at least one bloke who had bought a place in the North. I was wondering how they felt on the issue. Even though we share the same nationality i have found that expats residing in the North and South have differant outlooks, sometimes diverse, sometimes hostile.
    Any comments welcome
  2. oldbaldy

    oldbaldy LE Moderator Good Egg (charities)
    1. Battlefield Tours

    I think you'll find it was:

    Daily Telegraph

    Daily Mail

    The Times
  3. I read the local papers and the UK online press i was just after a down to earth Brit view.
    Thanks Anyway
  4. I just knew that this would come back and bite the Expats one day! Having had lots of dealings with folk from both side of the divide about lost land ect, even contemplated buying land there myself but in hindsight I'm glad I didn't now.
  5. Alsacien

    Alsacien LE Moderator

    How can this decision be enforced, the UK has no jurisdiction in Northern Cyprus and the EU does not recognise it?
  6. There is a popular liberal Radio "Echo of Moscow" that yesturday scrutinized this case in the program "The Case".

    To make a judgement let's regard a similar situation. Lands belonged to Georgian refugees in Abkhazia are sold to Russians. Would it be illegal or not? I believe that it is illegal.

    I'm sure that the Orams were well aware that the land was stolen. But the way what is its previous 'owner' who sold it? Why not to prosucute the 'owner' for theft and fraud?

    The EU regards Nothern Cyprus as occupied part of Cyprus (thus occupied part of the EU). Ironically the occupant itself knock to the doors of the EU and anyway Turkey must obey court ruling if it ever wish to join the EU.
  7. It can't, but should a settlement ever be reached, I can't see the TRNC govt turning down EU membership to preserve a house belonging to a couple of foreign pensioners.

    I assume their pensions etc are paid by UK Plc; perhaps that is the means by which further pressure to comply may be put on them.
  8. Alsacien

    Alsacien LE Moderator

    Turkey will never be a member of the EU, they may at some point get some special trading status but that is it.

    Shame we are not interested in other land issues to such a high degree - like Gaza, and one for you Sergey, Russian occupation of Finnish land in the Karelian Isthmus and Karelia itself.
    What about Silesian land now owned by Poland? Sudetan land now owned by Czech Republic?

    For every Greek that left their land in Nothern Cyprus, at least one Turk went the opposite way. Many Turks who had lost land in the south were compensated with land in the North - maybe a few should start some UK court cases.....?
  9. This is the inherent danger of buying in N Cyprus. There is no real land registry, unlike RoC which has land registry modelled on the UK system. I never understood how the Orams won the first case, except there was a strong political element, wife of then UK PM acting for them. It will please some of our friends who intend reclaiming their hotel in Kyrenia, if and when normalisation takes place. First round of "intensive talks" was reported to have achieved nothing but progress is hidden by "nothing is agreed until everything is agreed"
  10. No, but if the Annan plan had succeeded, the TRNC would have been reincorporated into the Republic of Cyprus, and thus would be part of the EU (unless, as is highly possible, I've misunderstood it).

    Really? In 1960, 78% of the population were Greek Cypriot, with another 4% assorted (Armenian, Lebanese) Christians. think the Turkish Cypriot population of TRNC is now outnumbered by post-1974 Anatolian settlers- much to Turkish Cypriot chagrin.

  11. The Orams live in the UK, they built the Villa as a Holiday home. If they do not comply with the UK Judgement they will be in contempt of court. In short if they do not act they could face further fines or inprisonment within their own Country.Also thier UK assets are at risk. Thats why it is important, up until now they ignored all other legal bodies.
  12. First of all never say never. And Turkey could be told to obey EU court ruling as a precondition to any negotiations.

    Not Gaza exactly but there are similar problems in the ME, in the occupied (by Israel) territories. For example, Lebanese citizens are lawfull owners of land in and around Sheba Farms. But the lands are under Israeli occupation and Israel doesn't recognise the rights of the owners.

    As for South Karelia then there is a border treaty between Finland and the Soviet Union. It is a legal basis not to recognise property claims. But there is no border treaty between Russia and Japan. Thus previous Japanese property owners in S.Kurile island and S.Sakhalin have not lost hope (but I fear only in theory).

    As for Silesia, Pommerania, East Prussia, Sudettenland then then there are treaties including Helsinki final act.

    It would be logical, why not?
  13. It would be logical, and fair. However, the TRNC would lose more (in terms of land) than they would gain by this (see map above) and so, without being cynical about human nature, I doubt they'll be pushing for it...
  14. It is out of the theme, however not so far


    It is Kremplin's agitprop.

    Really the authorities violate the Law. Soviet citizens were allowed to build holiday houses in this place in 1958. It was outside Moscow. There exists a law that allows the owner of such houses to register property rights for land but... it is too expensive land. There are villas of minesters and super-rich around. There is an elite golf club and the authourities decided to remove 'ordinary' Russians from their land and demolish their houses. For this purpose this piece of land was declared as 'specially guarded'. The owners of the houses were denied right to register their land owning rights. And now...

    Morale: the 'Law' is alway of the side of the strongest... and most immoral.
  15. This is one of the big stumbling blocks with the whole charade. The TRNC is classed as Turkish, so unless Turkey has full EU membership, neither can the TRNC. The problem with some of the current settlement proposals that are being put forward by Mr Ali Talat would give the occupants of the TRNC full EU rights, e.g. Freedom of movement and the freedom of trade without borders, without actually being part of Europe or without making any contribution to any sort of European Fund.

    This could/would lead to The Republic of Cyprus being a gateway to Europe for everyone that sees fit to either take up residence in the north or that can buy a Turkish Passport.