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Calling out Wikipedia....

Goatman

ADC
Book Reviewer
Skimming a piece on the WW2 siege of Sevastopol, I came across this curious statement

The German air campaign against Sevastopol in June 1942 surpassed by far the German bombings of Warsaw, Rotterdam or London.[6] From 3 to 6 June, the Luftwaffe carried out 2,355 operations and dropped 1,800 tons of high explosives.[6]

SOURCE HERE

Um.....really ? The London Blitz took place over an 8 month period between Sept 1940 and MAY 1941 .

It is estimated that more than 30,000 people were killed during the Blitz, and many more were injured.

About 60% of London’s buildings were damaged or destroyed.

From 7 September 1940, London was systematically bombed by the Luftwaffe for 56 of the following 57 days and nights.

The Blitz - Wikipedia


Is this yet another instance of ' The Red Army saved Europe from Hitler ' agitprop?

- twisting the facts to meet the 'Heroic Soviet' narrative ?

Just wondering, I'll fetch my shapka.
 
Skimming a piece on the WW2 siege of Sevastopol, I came across this curious statement

The German air campaign against Sevastopol in June 1942 surpassed by far the German bombings of Warsaw, Rotterdam or London.[6] From 3 to 6 June, the Luftwaffe carried out 2,355 operations and dropped 1,800 tons of high explosives.[6]

SOURCE HERE

Um.....really ? The London Blitz took place over an 8 month period between Sept 1940 and MAY 1941 .

It is estimated that more than 30,000 people were killed during the Blitz, and many more were injured.

About 60% of London’s buildings were damaged or destroyed.

From 7 September 1940, London was systematically bombed by the Luftwaffe for 56 of the following 57 days and nights.

The Blitz - Wikipedia


Is this yet another instance of ' The Red Army saved Europe from Hitler ' agitprop?

- twisting the facts to meet the 'Heroic Soviet' narrative ?

Just wondering, I'll fetch my shapka.
Guessing any wikipedia member can edit it. You could always join, do some editing and reference it to good sources. Show the agitprop revisionists who's boss!
 

Yokel

LE
You do not need to be a member to edit Wikipedia. Anyone can. I once added some rude comments to an article about a certain politician. Some unsporting soul changed it back.

Not sure how you do formatting like bold or inserting links, but you can delete or add text. Someone might even tidy it up for you.
 

Goatman

ADC
Book Reviewer
Actually I was rather hoping someone with more detailed knowledge than me of either the London Blitz or the attacks on Warsaw and Rotterdam would pipe up and say - Hogwash!

Without getting laborious it just struck me as a typically former Sov era outlandish claim.

Pretty sure the island of Malta GC received more attention from the Luftwaffe and the Regio Aeronautica than Sevastopol but hey......


And yes , I am aware of the mechanics of altering a Wiki entry - just never engaged.

The actual tonnage of bombs dropped by the Luftwaffe on Britain can be seen here:

The Bombing of Britain : Exeter University Centre for War Studies

The campaign from March to June 1941 was directed mainly at the port areas with heavy attacks on Liverpool, Belfast , Clydebank, Hull and Plymouth . Two major attacks on London on 16/17 April and 10/11 May did extensive damage and produced high casualties, but the nightly bombing carried out between September and December 1940 was not repeated.

In March 1941 the German Air Fleets were informed that most aircraft were to be moved east for the Barbarossa campaign against the Soviet Union and in early June the bulk of German air forces were transferred.

A residual force was kept in northern France to obstruct British attacks on Germany and German-occupied Europe and to carry out small raids on southern and eastern ports and occasional inland targets. The numbers used for each raid were small, sometimes only two or three aircraft, flying in low under the radar screen, sometimes 50-70 bombers.

The German hope was for a quick victory in Russia and a return to the heavy bombing of Britain.

The pattern of German bombing can be seen in the figures for the annual tonnage dropped on British targets:


Tonnage of Bombs on British Targets 1940-1945*

1940 36,844
1941 21,858
1942 3,260
1943 2298
1944 9,151
1945 761

*includes V-weapons


The war in the East and the air defence of the Reich took up a high proportion of German air resources and the offensive against Britain was never seriously renewed. In spring 1942, as an act of retaliation against the British bombing of Paris in March and of Lübeck and Rostock in April, Hitler ordered a series of small raids against British cities of cultural and historic significance. Over the following two months there were attacks against Exeter , York , Bath , Norwich and Canterbury and in June two raids on the seaside resort of Weston-super Mare. After that the German Air Force had too many tasks to perform at the fighting fronts to be able to do anything against Britain . Plans were laid in 1943 to try to restart the Blitz and in January 1944, under the command of General Peltz, a series of larger raids, codenamed ‘Operation Steinbock', were carried out against London and a number of other cities.

Against the V2 rocket there was no defence except to capture and destroy the rocket silos, but slow production and the constant need to retreat in the face of the Anglo-American advance through north-western Europe once again placed limits on what could be achieved.

Small air raids were still conducted through to late March 1945, when the last rocket, the last flying bomb and the last conventional air raid hit British targets.

------------------------------ ---------------------------------- ----------------------------------- -------------------


Ah well, let the re-writing of history continue apace.
 
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Goatman

ADC
Book Reviewer
And what does it have to say on the Siege of Sevastopol in WW2 ?

Ah.....I see...

Uncyclopedia said:
Create the page "Siege of Sevastopol WW2" on this wiki!

There were no results matching the query.

On the air war against Malta, as an example:

According to Luftwaffe records, Malta operations between March 20 and April 28, 1942, involved 5,807 sorties by bombers, 5,667 by fighters and 345 by reconnaissance aircraft—a total of 11,819 sorties.

In this 5½-week period, the weight of bombs dropped is reported to have exceeded
7,228 tons.

SOURCE
 
Last edited:
Skimming a piece on the WW2 siege of Sevastopol, I came across this curious statement

The German air campaign against Sevastopol in June 1942 surpassed by far the German bombings of Warsaw, Rotterdam or London.[6] From 3 to 6 June, the Luftwaffe carried out 2,355 operations and dropped 1,800 tons of high explosives.[6]

SOURCE HERE

Um.....really ? The London Blitz took place over an 8 month period between Sept 1940 and MAY 1941 .

It is estimated that more than 30,000 people were killed during the Blitz, and many more were injured.

About 60% of London’s buildings were damaged or destroyed.

From 7 September 1940, London was systematically bombed by the Luftwaffe for 56 of the following 57 days and nights.

The Blitz - Wikipedia


Is this yet another instance of ' The Red Army saved Europe from Hitler ' agitprop?

- twisting the facts to meet the 'Heroic Soviet' narrative ?

Just wondering, I'll fetch my shapka.
It could be accurate in a particular context eg It may be it was more intensive than the Blitz eg Stukas by day than hammerred by a mix at night or more bombs in a smaller area.
 
Ah well, let the re-writing of history continue apace.

Well, you could always ask the author, who seems reasonably well-qualified to make authoritative statements (assuming the citation in the Wiki article is accurate):
  • Hayward, Joel S. A. Stopped at Stalingrad: The Luftwaffe and Hitler's Defeat in the East, 1942–1943. University Press of Kansas, 1998. ISBN 978-0-7006-1146-1
Joel Hayward FRHistS FRSA (born 1964) is a New Zealand-born British scholar, writer, and poet. From 1997 to 2004 he was also a lecturer at the Officer Cadet School of the New Zealand Army,[25] where he taught military history from Alexander the Great to the Balkan Wars,[24] and at the Command and Staff College of the Royal New Zealand Air Force,[25] where he taught airpower history and doctrine and supervised advanced research in military history.

Hayward lived and worked in the United Kingdom from 2004 to 2012[25] first teaching strategy and operational art at the Joint Services Command and Staff College. In November 2005 he became the head of the newly created Air Power Studies Division, a specialist unit of Defence Studies academics established by the Royal Air Forceand King's College London at the Royal Air Force College, Cranwell.[7][30] Hayward was appointed Dean of the RAF College, Cranwell in April 2007.[7] He was a Director of the Royal Air Force Centre for Air Power Studies, the Air Force's national thinktank. He was also a member of the CAS Air Power Workshop, a small and highly select working group of scholars and other theorists convened by the Chief of Air Staff (the head of the Royal Air Force.)

Stopped at Stalingrad: The Luftwaffe and Hitler's Defeat in the East, 1942–1943 is a 1998 book about the Battle of Stalingrad by British scholar Joel Hayward.

Reviews

"... an original and formidably researched study ... Stopped at Stalingrad is an absolutely indispensable work not only for its revelations about Stalingrad, but equally for a more complete understanding of the nature of Soviet-German operations in a critical year." — Professor John Erickson, RUSI Journal, June 1998, p. 80.

Charles Messenger, ed., Readers Guide to Military History (Chicago, Il: Fitzroy Dearborn, 2001) describes the book as "a magnificently researched study … [which] provides the best available account of the disastrous Stalingrad airlift." The book is "an advanced and exhaustive work that will become a standard in the field once it is better known." (pp. 740, 765)

"This is a superb piece of work. It is an absolute must for anyone with an interest in the war on the eastern front, and on the Stalingrad campaign in particular. ... The book is splendidly researched and well written. Hayward has the knack of being able to explain even very technical matters in easily understood prose." — Professor Richard L. DiNardo, New York Military Affairs Symposium Newsletter, Fall 1998, pp. 4–5.

"Hayward's research is impeccable . ... His tri-dimensional [i.e., joint service] treatments of the Crimean campaign, the siege and capture of Sevastopol, and the air-ground actions during the Battle of Stalingrad are perhaps the best available anywhere. ... His examination of the Stalingrad airlift is also first rate, and provides an unparalleled view of the operation from the air fleet headquarters' perspective.... Hayward's rendering is an important contribution to the airpower history of World War II." — Professor Richard Muller, The Journal of Military History, October 1998, pp. 951–952.

"The great merit of this excellent account is to remind historians that this was not just a ground struggle, but an air war as well. ... Hayward has used a remarkably wide range of sources, which he handles with exceptional deftness and critical detachment. He writes clearly and interestingly. ...This is a model of its kind, which ought to set an agenda for the reconstruction of the air narrative in this and other theatres in the greatest of air wars." - Professor Richard Overy, War in History, Vol. 8 No. 1 (2001), pp. 123–125.


 
Last edited:
Skimming a piece on the WW2 siege of Sevastopol, I came across this curious statement

The German air campaign against Sevastopol in June 1942 surpassed by far the German bombings of Warsaw, Rotterdam or London.[6] From 3 to 6 June, the Luftwaffe carried out 2,355 operations and dropped 1,800 tons of high explosives.[6]

SOURCE HERE

Um.....really ? The London Blitz took place over an 8 month period between Sept 1940 and MAY 1941 .

It is estimated that more than 30,000 people were killed during the Blitz, and many more were injured.

About 60% of London’s buildings were damaged or destroyed.

From 7 September 1940, London was systematically bombed by the Luftwaffe for 56 of the following 57 days and nights.

The Blitz - Wikipedia


Is this yet another instance of ' The Red Army saved Europe from Hitler ' agitprop?

- twisting the facts to meet the 'Heroic Soviet' narrative ?

Just wondering, I'll fetch my shapka.

You're heading down a rabbit hole. Especially when you come to the phrase "Prove it!".

I could happily shoot steaming great big holes in several of Wikipedia's articles. However, Wikipedia will not let me, because even if I post the original documents, I'm wrong. Becuase so and so said it in a book written 30 years ago, which was only mentioning the topic in passing.
Amusingly, once I've written them down in a book, then they can be used. But there's the whole ethical problem of citing yourself (It'll make you go blind I'm informed). Problem is it then becomes my word against some other authors, and the more famous you are the more likely you are to be correct, I suspect. There's the suspicion that as a historian they'll want me as a page as well. I've not created a Wiki page for myself. I've seen others create their own page, and have no achievements, it seems a bit egotistical.

That's the first problem. The second is anyone can say whatever the hell they like. Its history by committee, and the entrenched version will win. Equally, as you say, those with an agenda can alter it as they wish.

That's why I decided to steer clear of the never ending argument (I can get that on social media sites by defending BREXIT or Johnson if I'm bored enough). It jsut seems my time can be better spent researching, than undoing several mistakes which are constantly being re-added on Wiki.
 

37ucv67i

War Hero
Well, you could always ask the author, who seems reasonably well-qualified to make authoritative statements (assuming the citation in the Wiki article is accurate):
  • Hayward, Joel S. A. Stopped at Stalingrad: The Luftwaffe and Hitler's Defeat in the East, 1942–1943. University Press of Kansas, 1998. ISBN 978-0-7006-1146-1
A quick search on Google Books (Stopped at Stalingrad) gives this bit on p. 97: "...This hellish blitz was far more ferocious than those inflicted thus far in the war on Warsaw, Rotterdam, London or Malta. Because it made survival above ground virtually impossible..." It would seem that Hayward is indeed talking about something like tons per area and isn't some sort of Commie propagandist.
 

Goatman

ADC
Book Reviewer
During the bombing of Malta, the submarines of the RN's Tenth SM flotilla which were based there, submerged alongside during the day as it was safer.

The Wikipedia statement: The German air campaign against Sevastopol in June 1942 surpassed by far the German bombings of Warsaw, Rotterdam or London.[6] From 3 to 6 June, the Luftwaffe carried out 2,355 operations and dropped 1,800 tons of high explosives.[6]

is demonstrably fake, false and misleading.

As Listy has noted, getting changes adopted and approved on Wikipedia is an exercise for Sancho Panzer* and his OC.....I readily confess ah cannae be airrsed but hey ho.




















* [This is a deliberate mispelling, a futile attempt at humour (arf Arf)...it is a 'pune ' or play on words, conflating the name of Don Quixote's loyal servant and the German word for tank. Now smile you miserable kahnt ! ]
 
Skimming a piece on the WW2 siege of Sevastopol, I came across this curious statement

The German air campaign against Sevastopol in June 1942 surpassed by far the German bombings of Warsaw, Rotterdam or London.[6] From 3 to 6 June, the Luftwaffe carried out 2,355 operations and dropped 1,800 tons of high explosives.[6]

SOURCE HERE

Um.....really ? The London Blitz took place over an 8 month period between Sept 1940 and MAY 1941 .

It is estimated that more than 30,000 people were killed during the Blitz, and many more were injured.

About 60% of London’s buildings were damaged or destroyed.

From 7 September 1940, London was systematically bombed by the Luftwaffe for 56 of the following 57 days and nights.

The Blitz - Wikipedia


Is this yet another instance of ' The Red Army saved Europe from Hitler ' agitprop?

- twisting the facts to meet the 'Heroic Soviet' narrative ?

Just wondering, I'll fetch my shapka.

The wiki author's line is based upon the inimitable (that's one word to describe him...) Joel Hayward's Stopped at Stalingrad. The wiki author has misinterpreted what Hayward says when paraphrasing him.

Hayward is talking about the intensity of the bombardment on 3, 4, 5 & 6 June 1942 and suggesting that there was no localised bombardment of similar 'ferocity' against a localised target over a similar four-day period. Whether he's got that right, I'm not sure, but the Wiki piece has missed the point of Hayward's contention.
 

Goatman

ADC
Book Reviewer
Thanks, helpful....Dr Hayward seems a fairly extraordinary scholar.

From dean of the RAF College at Cranwell to tenure at Khalifa University Abu Dhabi in a single bound .....wow, some leap.

Good to know that Wiki has paraphrased him poorly.
 

ches

LE
While this article in question may be gen, there has been a concerted attempt over the last 10 years to promote the russian achievements of WW2. We all know the history....as interested enthusiasts, but money from places unknown has been spent in the millions of roubles, pushing the russians did everything in WW2 cause. A number of high profile russian language movies that have made significant dents in the west were part financed by the russian govt. Iirc the Times of Guardian did a piece about this topic a cpl of years ago. There was a post on here not too long ago from an article from eastern europe pushing the story that Overlord was irrelevant & had no impact on the 'real' war in the east..................hmmm.
 
Thanks, helpful....Dr Hayward seems a fairly extraordinary scholar.

From dean of the RAF College at Cranwell to tenure at Khalifa University Abu Dhabi in a single bound .....wow, some leap.

Good to know that Wiki has paraphrased him poorly.

Er, yes. It wasn't a single bound and it also involved suing the Daily Mail for libel (and winning). There are also the holocaust denial allegations from earlier in his career, of course.H e is an.... interesting character to put it mildly.

It wouldn't be an exaggeration to say part of me was hoping that Wiki hadn't paraphrased him badly, but no shooting fish in a barrel for me today...
 

Goatman

ADC
Book Reviewer
An honest man - in the world of historians !

We are not worthy... [ON kow-tow]
 

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