Calling All MTWO/RQMS(T)/QM(T)/ET Sponsers/IPT's anyone that can answer !!

Discussion in 'Weapons, Equipment & Rations' started by DesktopCommando, Jul 14, 2010.

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  1. If someone issues a Vehicle to CES, does it include everything on the CES shedule

    (DII Only)
    2320-H-104-741 Chap 2-1-2 Page 3

    1. Support, Camouflage Net x 30
    2.Cap, Camouflage Net Support 18" x 10
    4.Pin Tent, 12", Mild Steel x 10

    I am being told that these Item are ET Items and not to issue them with the vehicle, fair enough there's no Cam Net (which is on the ET). If this is correct why the hell are they on there in the first place, also where is it written that these do not go with the vehicle.

    Look at a Drops CES and the Cam Net is also on there, but I'm being told that it's a ET Item.

    Does a Unit's ET support all the Vehicles regardless of these Items on their CES Shedules ?, and again if this is correct where is the paperwork to back this up !! I hate being the middle man getting yelled at by different oppinons of this subject.
  2. Pain in the ARRSE this one. Your main Equipment table account holder who looks after it should be able to help you i.e. your RQMS (tech), or if you have one, the technical Sgt. On the E.T there should be cam and concealment sets for each vehicle and each one of those should have the schedule number written next to it telling you exactly what is contained for each cam & concealment set.
  3. Some CES (AESP) Contain the full cam kit, some contain part and some non, there are some Cam kits that are complete CES in their own right and some Cam kit appears on the UET. Clear as mud hey. Much like other ET items such as Shovels and Water Jerrycans.

    If for example you hold 10 Landrovers and the CES says 2 x Water Jerrycan, you should account for 20 Water jerrycans as CES items. The common problem arises when these are checked by someone who has no knowledge of the CES and enters them on the ET (usually on a BOO when the normal storeman is away and a sprog officer is being blagged by the stand-in). Therefore you end up trying to account for 40 Water jerrycans when in reality it was always 20.

    I have had many arguments with QM’s staff about this issue, however, the bottom line is if it appears on your CES and there is no note saying it is supplied by other sources you should account for it as a CES item.

    It is even more complicated for Cam nets because there are generally 3 sizes (approx) individual nets are usually attached to make bigger single sized nets (a 9m x 9m attached to a 11.5m x 11.5m for example). On stores checks these can sometimes be counted as 1 creating mass confusion. People will then think they are diffy and obtain more usually accounting for them all on the ET. Net (oops) result hundreds of Cam nets on the ET.

    The way I used to get around it was to store CES Cam equipment with the Vehicle CES items and ET equipment on separate shelves.

    Long winded answer, but hopefully helpfull
  4. Understand your answer, I am the same way inclined to do it that way, But the RQM(T) is saying that it is on the CES, but also the ET & when issueing a vehicle you dont issue the CES cam kit as it is held on the ET also ??

    But in black and white, if it is on the CES and the ET then there should be two lots not just one.
    If this is the correct answer then where in written form does it explain this ? Thats why if a higher up authority reads this can they give a correct answer or direction ?
  5. Tell your RQM(T) he is talking through his ARRSE.

    If you have 20 Trucks Complete to CES on your ET, they need to be accounted for Complete to CES or as a ‘single Item’ (JSP 886, Vol 4, Pt 201, Sect 2, Para 12).

    If you happen to have items contained within that CES listed individually on your ET, whether it be a screwdriver, a spanner or a Cam Net (accounted for in Sect 9 with the other Camouflage Equipment) , they are separate items and have be accounted for as such.

    So if you have 10 trucks complete to CES with the item Cam Net 9x9 x 1, plus Cam Net 9x9 x 10 in Sect 9 of your ET you need to account for Cam Net 9x9 x 20.

    It really is as simple as that (You may want to also look at JSP 886, Vol 4, Pt 204).

    If you are issuing internally, you can issue what you want (use an AF B6530). If you are issuing externally you need to issue complete to CES. I certainly wouldn’t take a vehicle off your hands without it’s CES
  6. Yes 20 Cam nets, 10 not accounted for (but as part of a CES) as the Main Equipment will be on the ET , plus 10 on ET = 20. Unfortunatley he see's the 10 on the CES as the Same on the ET 10 + 10 = 10 (and the QM(T) does as well.

    From both bosses they say that the cam and concealment system is treated differently from vehicles and if it's listed on the CES it is also the item held on the ET.

    I'll go through the JSP references tomorrow (cheers)
  7. If they see it that way I think your F*cked mate, sometimes you can't fight the pink.

    JSP 886 is a huge document and not easy to digest, however, the 2 Volumes above relate to ET and CES matters.

    The only advice I can give is pig headed G4 staff can very swiftly change their tune if they are about to be caught out. If on an LSI it is pointed out that they are 10 Cam Nets short (due to double accounting) it amazing how swiftly that deficiency becomes the fault of the MT/Sigs or sub-unit storemen.

    Always ensure someone senior (in your CofC) who you trust is aware of your concerns in cases like this.
  8. CAARPS is right. The only place CES items should appear on your ET is on the Maint account so that you can demand the individual items without demanding the whole CES, that is what it is there for.

    You may hold some cam sets on your ET as well as on the vehicle CES but these are not for vehicles, they are for the concealment of tents, dog kennels etc.

    If you want a definitive answer, staff the question up to your BOWO and let him offer his wordly advice to your already confused state.

    Only other tip, if you have concerns make sure you put it all in writing to the Regt G4 management team so that your ARRSE is covered.
  9. I agree 100% with your assessment, but my bosses dont, and are now coming down on me for issuing "ET Items" on an external issue to another unit. I would like to have the written backup to show I am doing it the correct way, unless there is also something written down that proves their assessment. Ive yet to look up Caarps's JSP reference's but will later on.