Cadet forces: worth £87 million a year?

Discussion in 'ACF' started by _Artemis_, Sep 14, 2007.

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  1. Hansard has the approximate expenditure by the MOD on the ATC, ACF and SCF at around £87 million a year clicky. In an ideal world, the MOD would continue to finance the cadet forces to at least this amount while properly funding the Armed Forces. However, since a decent level of funding for the Armed Forces seems a pretty far-off goal, is spending this amount of money on the cadet forces justified?

    A few disclaimers: a) I realise that, even if the MOD pulled the funding for the cadet forces tomorrow, the Armed Forces would not suddenly get an extra £87 million a year. Moreover there are probably many more worthwhile targets for removing funding.

    b) the value of the cadet forces is not in question: massive recruting tool as well as community work and most importantly giving young people a sense of discipline and a huge range of opportunities.

    c) £87 million p.a. is a drop in the ocean compared to the increase the Armed Forces need.

    I'm not sure entirely where I stand on this, I just find something slightly disconcerting about what is not a trivial amount of money being spent on a youth organisation when there is such a serious finanical crisis in the military as a whole. Thoughts?
  2. I'm not sure it is a massive recruiting tool. At my last TA unit we shared the D of Y's barracks with (i think) 2 ACF and 1 ATC detachments. Our NCOs were constantly getting them in, filling the forms in for them etc... and then they'd never be seen again.

    Rather than persuading ambivalent teens to join the Army, it just provides an outlet for those who were already keen to join the army to learn drill and ironing sooner (along with a few uncommitted others).

    While it may perform some social function- stopping the Kidz loitering on street corners- I'm sure it could be argued that the kids who join the ACF are precisely the ones who wouldn't be raping cars and joyriding grannies anyway. Even if it is true, then the ACF funds should come out of the Home Office budget, not the Defence one.

    Scrap the OTCs too. Turn them into smaller, TA Group A commissioning factories.
  3. Damnit, had a quick scan through before I posted but clearly didn't do so well enough :oops: . Apologies.

    Rump, on the recruiting point: can't find the exact stats now but seem to recall reading that around half of all RAF officers were ATC? Impossible to know how many of those people would have joined if the ATC existed, but it's food for thought.
  4. Personally, as an ex cadet the TA was never an organisation that blokes in our detachment aspired to(yet we shared amenities).

    The question of setting a figure against the Cadet forces worth is not easy to quantify.

    Because a cadet doesn't follow on into the forces does not necessarily indicate money spent is not justified. I've left the ACF over twenty years now and any time I meet some blokes from my ACF days, all agree the time spent in teenage uniform has given them a certain edge over their "civvy" contemporaries.
  5. From what I understand, the final intake for phase one, once papersift, selection, clearance been done and then attested, 30% of them are ex cadets which is a high number, considering, they probably make up about 10% of the initial recruit to begin with, as the civvies drops out along the way, the ratio of cadets to civvies gets higher, not all cadets go on to join the Army, at least many of them will respect the Armed forces and what it stands for.
  6. I think you have answered any questions within your own post.It would appear that the cadets are good value for money if you consider how much money it would cost the system should all lil tykes degenerate into the granny raping chav scum we are all so fond of.Frankly im surprised its cost so little to maintain the various organisations.From all the ex spaceys i encountered thay seemed to of had a mega time in the cadets and got the sort of jollies your line tom could only dream of.
  7. I did this as well, but got stick when I suggested that ACF "Volunteers" should give up a proportion of wages for re-allocation to cadet activities.

    Why pay ACF AI's by rank? What more does an SSI DC do than an SI DC?

    I agree that some monetary compensation for expenses etc is needed, but surely not Sergeants rates.

  8. From an ex-cadet's point of view (by ex I mean two years) I had a really great time, and, though I don't think it was a deal breaker (I was an Army scholar) certainly gives a bloody good insight into the Forces, which people I think will remember later on in life. Certainly there are those who piss about and do very little, but the Cadets, whether in school or out, are a good thing for the community, the economy and the Forces...the Government would be extremely foolish not to fund them, they teach (at least nominally) discipline, leadership and a whole host of interesting and helpful skills-first aid,etc. The courses offered by the Forces are second to none, and I very much enjoyed those I went on. I understand concern over the financial status of the Forces, but cutting things like the Cadets is foolishness, and will help not at all. The money IS there, in the form of welfare payments, unpaid taxes, thousand pound sculptures for NHS hospitals, and indescribable wastage in civil service departments. The time is coming, very soon, when both the government and the public at large will have to make a choice on defence spending. God help them if they choose to do nothing.

  9. you forget many do make a loss in either losing out on overtime or is self employed, I myself stand to lose money as I won't be doing overtime to make a living wage.

    one instructor on his ITC has said that has lost £800 for going to annual camp to do his ITC, h eneeds to pay his mortgage, I hope the pay will go through in time for him, he did actually said that if he had failed his ITC , he would forget Cadets completely, as much as he love it, he had responsibilities outside of the ACF.

    if we stopped pay, there will be few going to camp, the Cadets training will be much poorer or may not even go ahead at all, we had to go through proffessional training and vetting in order to wear our stripes.

    for what we get, we are value for money, for every Cadet we put onthe straight and narrow will save the Taxpayer £200,000 in court costs, Jail time, food, benefits, prisoner resettlement training.

    so £87m spread over 80,000 cadets 9,000 AIs works out at about £977.52p per head

    so that is really cheap !
  10. msr

    msr LE

    And you should be a politician!

    Isn't it a bit of a large assumption that all 80,000 cadets are going to be in court / prison / on the dole?

  11. I heard a few years ago that it cost £20,000 to deal with a youth crime (Police time, COurt, Probation, Legal Aid etc) - if there are arround 2,000 ACF/ATC/SCC units (?) and each unit only has to prevent 3 youth crimes a year to save HMG money - plus thereis always thwe chance that the younguns will learn something useful from it
  12. Yes, they are worth the money spent on them as they get kids off the streets but it is sad that they are the only major youth organisation that gets funding from the Government.

    I'm a scout leader and an ex space cadet and the difference between the 2 organisations is vast.

    We get no funding at all, none of us are paid, if we want to get qualifications in any outdoors activities we have to pay for them ourselves, the only money we get is from the grants we have to jump through hoops to obtain, from the kids parents or from fundraising.

    Fundraising is the kicker, people don't care anymore the only people who will contribute tend to be ones with a link to the scout association or the guides other than that who wants to be in the town centre with a bunch of kids who are being abused by local idots with nothing better to do.

    Then this week we find out that the church who we are attached to is planning to start charging us for the hall we use after 75 years of giving us free accomodation.

    So yes the cadets is worth the money it gets, if the government had any sense it would invest in more youth organisations rather than wasting it on the great unwashed who will just waste it.
  13. Absolutely agree. Money spent on cadets teaches teamwork, respect for rank and an understanding of discipline. Attributes not always seen at home or school. The 95% of cadets who don't join up are better prepared for civil employment and have the edge over non cadets. Even now when I am interviewing I vaguely ask did you do the cadets, Duke of Edinburgh Award, Scouts/Guides etc. Guess what ? I pay more credence to ex cadets than non cadet types.

    £87 Mill is a drop in the ocean compared to the money wasted by local and central government on mickey mouse schemes. We should invest £887 Mill and make the cadets a really attractive extra mural activity for young folk. We will reap the benefits within 5 years as they enter military or civilian careers.
  14. Sorry, can only spend vast amounts of cash on sending crims on holiday or youth groups if theyre ethnic minority and have an anti british agenda. Die Infidels and Ramadan Mubarrak.