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C2 sight on gpmg

#1
 Anyone know or can point me in the right direction to
tell me  if the C2 sight on the gpmg in sf mode has  ever
been used in active service ?
   I asked about in my unit and even those nco who had done course did not know .and the only photos i saw in the gulf  had the gpmg  mounted on tripod without sight . personally i cant see what advantage the  c2 sight gives that a decent optic /night sight would
  havent done map predicted fire yet .but surely machine guns shouldnt try to be mortars?
 
#2
Map predicted fire is and it isn't like mortar fire. Indirect but a smaller area covered.

Useful in defence situations as you can map out potential enemy FUPs and have standing patrols out. As soon as you see the en move into one, standing ptl gets on the blower and lets the guns know.

Makes your day pretty rotten if you're lying in the FUP waiting to go when a hail of 7.62mm starts landing on you and you can't even see where it's coming from.

Can also be used for route denial, covering obs in dead ground, suppressing known en depth pos and various other tasks. Heard rumours that a MG section (3 guns) could make a beaten zone big enough to do real damage to a dismounted infantry company in a FUP.

Just another support weapon like the mortar and highly effective.

We have the C2 sight in our unit but I haven't been with the MG Pl long enough to comment on it's advantages/disadvantages/use in active service but I can find out for you in a couple of days.
 
#3
The advantage the c2 sight has over optis/night sight is that once you have layed onto a target and taken the readings you can then relay onto that target in any weather. A nightsight cannot see through fog and it certainly cant see out to 3000m's or through woods. MPF works quite well as we found out earlier this year at Feldome 5B. We arranged 8 Fig 11 tgs in a cross formation (layed flat on the ground) covering approx 30m's. We fired 100rds per gun (6 guns) at the target using MPF. All but 2 of the fig11's had at least 1 hit. For MPF to be effective barings, grids and readings must be accurate. Also it is a usefull sop to always set up for MPF when occupying a gun line.  
 
#4
:) yeah i know the theory of the C2  sight .but has it ever been used for real ?
       
 
L

LE_OC

Guest
#5
I believe that both 2 and 3 para used it down south in 82. Used offensively at Goose Green, GPMG SF was whacking down a beaten zone at considerable range to keep argy heads down in their holes. Perhaps someone who was there could confirm this?

I subsequently soldiered with an ex 2 para tom who humped two Mk 83 containers of 1 bit from San Carlos to Goose Green (and none too happy about it either). Unlikely that 1 bit would be used in the rifle section GPMGs but I could be wrong. (In those days, of course, we had GPMG at section level).
 
#6
1 bit is usully used at night 4 bit during the day, it could be that the supply situation 'down south' ment that 1 bit got issued instead of 4 bit, who knows.
As to the C2's use in offensive ops, it is useless unless the targets have been marked and recorded, so the iorn sight is use in the attac, although the C2 could be used on the inital assault, when the guns moved forward the target data would be no use.
 
#7
So the gun works whichevery one knows but the sight is untried in battle
oh well guess we carry on with it till we get its replacement :D same time we get bowman i guess
 

Mr Happy

LE
Moderator
#8
Oooh I saw photo's of it mounted on a GPMG in '82 so I suspect that it qualifies as "used". Whether the weapon ever got fired though I don't know.
 

Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer
#9
The only real SF gun is still the Vickers. Yes the water-cooled WW1 item. No it's not unweildly, mount it on a veh. SADF did it expertly, three on a Unimog and indirect fire (map predicted) drops death & destruction on those you're none too chuffed with. Sorry if it seems old fashioned but it has been proved to work. Again and again. (Got bugger all to do with the C2 sight, but what the hell)
 
#10
C2 sight has been used. In interdiction fire in defense and in pre-arranged area denial (SF foot posts placed in day and SF tripod placed at night) before night sights were de rigour (pre 82).
 
#11
Adyn said:
C2 sight has been used. In interdiction fire in defense and in pre-arranged area denial (SF foot posts placed in day and SF tripod placed at night) before night sights were de rigour (pre 82).
 
#12
MG_GUNNER said:
The advantage the c2 sight has over optis/night sight is that once you have layed onto a target and taken the readings you can then relay onto that target in any weather. A nightsight cannot see through fog and it certainly cant see out to 3000m's or through woods.

The disadvantage with C2 sight is that the recorded target takes much longer to acquire then it would using a fitted CWS or Viper sight. Neither can GPMG (SF) fire out to 3000m considering range tables only go out to 2500m

MPF works quite well as we found out earlier this year at Feldome 5B. We arranged 8 Fig 11 tgs in a cross formation (layed flat on the ground) covering approx 30m's. We fired 100rds per gun (6 guns) at the target using MPF. All but 2 of the fig11's had at least 1 hit. For MPF to be effective barings, grids and readings must be accurate. Also it is a usefull sop to always set up for MPF when occupying a gun line.

MPF is absolute rubbish and a total waste of ammunition. Not only that but even the C2 sight itself is pretty much defunct on current operations now we can fit night sights to the weapon. Also what does MPF work quite well in relation to?
 
#13
woody said:
:) yeah i know the theory of the C2 sight .but has it ever been used for real ?
Yes it has been used for 'real' on T1, H4 and H8 and I should imagine on other tours. Not often though as simply fitting the viper sight or CWS was found to be much more effective at quick target acquisition and actually being able to see the target area itself through the sight.
 
#16
Fallschirmjager said:
MG_GUNNER said:
The advantage the c2 sight has over optis/night sight is that once you have layed onto a target and taken the readings you can then relay onto that target in any weather. A nightsight cannot see through fog and it certainly cant see out to 3000m's or through woods.

The disadvantage with C2 sight is that the recorded target takes much longer to acquire then it would using a fitted CWS or Viper sight. Neither can GPMG (SF) fire out to 3000m considering range tables only go out to 2500m

MPF works quite well as we found out earlier this year at Feldome 5B. We arranged 8 Fig 11 tgs in a cross formation (layed flat on the ground) covering approx 30m's. We fired 100rds per gun (6 guns) at the target using MPF. All but 2 of the fig11's had at least 1 hit. For MPF to be effective barings, grids and readings must be accurate. Also it is a usefull sop to always set up for MPF when occupying a gun line.

MPF is absolute rubbish and a total waste of ammunition. Not only that but even the C2 sight itself is pretty much defunct on current operations now we can fit night sights to the weapon. Also what does MPF work quite well in relation to?
Which nightsight currently in service can be fitted to the GPMG in the SF role with a direct Fire range of 1500 metres..? Please do tell......
 
#17
Kitmarlowe said:
Which nightsight currently in service can be fitted to the GPMG in the SF role with a direct Fire range of 1500 metres..? Please do tell......
We've used maxikite to good effect at those ranges though it obviously depends on night time conditions. The problem with maxikite is you have to take it off to clear stoppages.

Tell me when you would use C2 sight at night considering the enemy have actually got to be within the beaten zone of your recorded target to engage them in the first place and you would need a night sight out to that range to know they are there in the first place, unless you can see muzzle flash? If you could see muzzle flash then why not just lay the guns on using the iron sight or maxikite?
The enemy in theatre aren't in large numbers dug into enemy positions. They are very mobile and in small groups. As such using C2 sight firing doesn't really happen in the real world. We can obviously mark and record previous enemy contact points but if they open up on us from those contact points as i've mentioned we can lay on using iron or night sight onto muzzle flash. It definitely works I know that much.
We also used the ANPAS sight to good effect on H4 though it was not procured as far as I believe.
 
S

stevieni22

Guest
#18
Im firmly with fally on this one,MPF while in theory against the 3rd shock army is good, but the thing is with it you need a offset op observing the area not to mention that MPF also has ROE issues it is unrealistic to use MPF in afghan and too dangerous to employ in such an environment.The C2 sight and aiming lamp and post is useful for marking and recording targets such as likely en contact points or previously used contact points so that in bad vis or night it can be layed on quickly and fine adjusted using maxi.
 
#19
Fallschirmjager said:
Kitmarlowe said:
Which nightsight currently in service can be fitted to the GPMG in the SF role with a direct Fire range of 1500 metres..? Please do tell......
We've used maxikite to good effect at those ranges though it obviously depends on night time conditions. The problem with maxikite is you have to take it off to clear stoppages.

Tell me when you would use C2 sight at night considering the enemy have actually got to be within the beaten zone of your recorded target to engage them in the first place and you would need a night sight out to that range to know they are there in the first place, unless you can see muzzle flash? If you could see muzzle flash then why not just lay the guns on using the iron sight or maxikite?
The enemy in theatre aren't in large numbers dug into enemy positions. They are very mobile and in small groups. As such using C2 sight firing doesn't really happen in the real world. We can obviously mark and record previous enemy contact points but if they open up on us from those contact points as i've mentioned we can lay on using iron or night sight onto muzzle flash. It definitely works I know that much.
We also used the ANPAS sight to good effect on H4 though it was not procured as far as I believe.
I wasn't aware that Maxikite fitted the Sight mounting on the GPMG, thanks for that. The beauty behind marking and recording is that you don't need the Night sight to engage the target, all you need is someone to clue you in that enemy are in the area of the Target location and away you go. Aiming off for enemy near a marked target is piss easy, if you practise the skills in C2 use......

To be honest. I wouldn't Mark & Record in daylight engagements if I can see the enemy. I would look at recording engagments from a fixed position if I can see that the enemy are fixated on using certain positions.

The only time I've done MPF was at Breacon, on the course itself!
 
#20
Kitmarlowe said:
I wasn't aware that Maxikite fitted the Sight mounting on the GPMG, thanks for that. The beauty behind marking and recording is that you don't need the Night sight to engage the target, all you need is someone to clue you in that enemy are in the area of the Target location and away you go. Aiming off for enemy near a marked target is piss easy, if you practise the skills in C2 use......

The maxikite goes onto the CWS bracket which fits onto the C2 sight mounting bracket. The trouble with C2 sight firing is the enemy have to be within or very close to the recorded target for you to have a change of engaging with success. Night sights have to an extent done away with C2 sight firing.

To be honest. I wouldn't Mark & Record in daylight engagements if I can see the enemy. I would look at recording engagments from a fixed position if I can see that the enemy are fixated on using certain positions.

But if we know the enemy use the same firing points time and time again and we know the ranges to those firing points it is obviously much easier to use night sights to engage. The night sight enables us to watch the enemy infiltrating into those positions and we can open fire before they do if need be. The C2 sight does not allow this. With the C2 sight you can only engage once the enemy have engaged (as you won't know they are there) or someone else tells you the enemy are there. Isn't it much easier having night sights fitted to your own guns?

The only time I've done MPF was at Breacon, on the course itself!

And what a crap course it is. I was offered a place as DS on the course but turned it down as it is a load of bollox. They are still waiting for the Russians to come through the Northern Flank. If anything an FSG course is needed as many units deploying to theatre have no understanding of the FSG concept or experience in using WMIK/Jackal.
 

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