Butlins loses "low pay" court case..

#1
Here is an interesting paragraph from the Telegraph:

Telegraph article

To summarise, Butlins' staff had their wages docked to pay for a contribution to their heating and lighting bills. In so doing, their wages fell below the minimum wage which is illegal. The company lost the case.

Isn't this what the MOD does to its soldiers, more or less?

I wonder...

Litotes
 
#2
After a quick bit of research, I found that a new recruit to the Services earns £33.32/day.

The minimum wage is £5.35/hr for adults according to the Telegraph.

So, an 8 hour day means that the recruit (up to the age of 33 now...) has only earned £4.17/hr before the MOD charges for accommodation, which includes fuel and light.

So, I'll step up to a Level 1 soldier who is paid £39.24/day. An 8 hour day means that he earns just £4.91/hr and is then charged fuel and light.

Methinks that there could just be a challenge to this, now that the Courts have created a precedent.

Soldiers paid less than the minimum wage and then charged for fuel and light? Paid less than those working for Butlins? Not, surely, Prime Minister, in Great Britain, on your watch?

Litotes
 
#3
I know surly can't be right

I mean that would suggest that being a useless scum tosser that claims depressions so they don't have to work would only be on
Rate Amount
Short-term lower rate £ 59.20
Short-term higher rate £ 70.05
Long-term basic rate £ 78.50

How harsh is that!!

Hmm so being on the dole pays more than serving your country?! Or have I got this wrong?
 
#4
Litotes said:
After a quick bit of research, I found that a new recruit to the Services earns £33.32/day.

The minimum wage is £5.35/hr for adults according to the Telegraph.

So, an 8 hour day means that the recruit (up to the age of 33 now...) has only earned £4.17/hr before the MOD charges for accommodation, which includes fuel and light.

So, I'll step up to a Level 1 soldier who is paid £39.24/day. An 8 hour day means that he earns just £4.91/hr and is then charged fuel and light.

Methinks that there could just be a challenge to this, now that the Courts have created a precedent.

Soldiers paid less than the minimum wage and then charged for fuel and light? Paid less than those working for Butlins? Not, surely, Prime Minister, in Great Britain, on your watch?

Litotes
All well and good Litotes, and I agree entirely with your view, but HM Forces are exempt from the minimum wage laws are they not?
SP
 
#5
Do Butlins workers get free food & accommodation apart from this charge? What if Bultins fitted coin meters to workers chalets to 'pay as you go' for heating and lighting? to prove it went towards utility bills?

Low paid workers and pensioners in civi street can get housing benefit to help them pay for rent and council tax, but get no help with utility bills such as Electric, Gas & Water. If squadies living in feel so hard done by why not apply for housing benefit themselves, I know some pads with kids do!
 
#6
linemanloz said:
I know surly can't be right

I mean that would suggest that being a useless scum tosser that claims depressions so they don't have to work would only be on
Rate Amount
Short-term lower rate £ 59.20
Short-term higher rate £ 70.05
Long-term basic rate £ 78.50

How harsh is that!!

Hmm so being on the dole pays more than serving your country?! Or have I got this wrong?
Those rates are PER WEEK by the way!
 
#7
Mike_2817 said:
linemanloz said:
I know surly can't be right

I mean that would suggest that being a useless scum tosser that claims depressions so they don't have to work would only be on
Rate Amount
Short-term lower rate £ 59.20
Short-term higher rate £ 70.05
Long-term basic rate £ 78.50

How harsh is that!!

Hmm so being on the dole pays more than serving your country?! Or have I got this wrong?
Those rates are PER WEEK by the way!
Fair enought, sore somewhere the words daily, but when coupled with Housing benafits and anything else they may manage to claim isn't a bad wage for sitting on your arrse all day!
 
#8
Snagglepuss said:
Litotes said:
After a quick bit of research, I found that a new recruit to the Services earns £33.32/day.

The minimum wage is £5.35/hr for adults according to the Telegraph.

So, an 8 hour day means that the recruit (up to the age of 33 now...) has only earned £4.17/hr before the MOD charges for accommodation, which includes fuel and light.

So, I'll step up to a Level 1 soldier who is paid £39.24/day. An 8 hour day means that he earns just £4.91/hr and is then charged fuel and light.

Methinks that there could just be a challenge to this, now that the Courts have created a precedent.

Soldiers paid less than the minimum wage and then charged for fuel and light? Paid less than those working for Butlins? Not, surely, Prime Minister, in Great Britain, on your watch?

Litotes
All well and good Litotes, and I agree entirely with your view, but HM Forces are exempt from the minimum wage laws are they not?
SP
Yes they are unfortunately - National Minimum Wage Act 1998 Section 37. Why I don't know because the Gummint seems very keen to include the Armed Forces in other areas they could be exempt from e.g H&S etc Work Act 1974, ADR etc.

This is the second rhetorical question I have posted today-no answers needed! The Gummint will tell us (not argue) or explain that HMF of course don't work 8 hour days and are not qualified under the Act due to the "National Interest of the Country". We know that- those of you still serving work a fcuk sight longer and :frustrated:

I think I've burst a blood vessel. :pissedoff:
 
#9
Snagglepuss said:
All well and good Litotes, and I agree entirely with your view, but HM Forces are exempt from the minimum wage laws are they not?
SP
All well and good indeed oh pink and white strped one but it doesn't make it right does it?
 
#10
Sent following to my MP ... might do something, but I doubt it ... not holding my breath ...
[align=right]February 20, 2007[/align]

Lembit Öpik MP
3 Park Street
Newtown Powys
SY16 1EE

Dear Sir,
I wish to bring to your attention the plight of the Armed Forces with regard pay.

The National minimum wage according to HM Revenue and Customs is £5.35 per hour (see: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/nmw/#dev ).

It has come to my attention that a recruit in the Army, up to the age of 33 years is paid £33.36p per day (£4.17p per hour based on an 8 hour working day) , and a Level 1 soldier is paid £39.24p (£4.91 per hour based on an 8 hour working day, although you will be aware that our soldiers often have to work more hours depending on operational commitment); out of this they are charged for fuel and light. This is far less than the minimum wage.

I would be grateful if you would bring this fact to the attention of the minister concerned, and ask that this situation be rectified.
I look forward to an early reply

Yours faithfully,
Signed
With regard to complaints about the minimum wage, complaint forms can be downloaded here

or a complaint can be made online here

or anonymously online here
 
#11
Cuddles said:
Snagglepuss said:
All well and good Litotes, and I agree entirely with your view, but HM Forces are exempt from the minimum wage laws are they not?
SP
All well and good indeed oh pink and white strped one but it doesn't make it right does it?
No.

But they will just spout the "HM forces are exempt" crap. Why are they exempt? I wonder if someone will ever take them to task over it?
 
#12
Cuddles said:
Snagglepuss said:
All well and good Litotes, and I agree entirely with your view, but HM Forces are exempt from the minimum wage laws are they not?
SP
All well and good indeed oh pink and white strped one but it doesn't make it right does it?
No it doesnt - which is why I said I agree entirely!
As already highlighted by others, our leaders have yet again applied the 'laws' when it suits.
So if we are exempt what can we do?
SP
 
#13
Mike_2817 said:
Do Butlins workers get free food & accommodation apart from this charge?
I worked for Butlins in Ayr in 1996, I was 21 and was paid £75.00 per week (after tax and NI), for living in, which meant, food (3 square a day), heating and light. With a minimum of a ten hour day, six days out of seven.
 
#14
Don't be too critical of the MOD on this issue. Despite the low pay, they stand head and shoulders above Butlins' scurrilous, exploitative slavedrivers.

The MOD show full appreciation for your service to the crown. Should you become directly involved in the defence of the realm and lay your life on the line, they issue medals as a token of their gratitude. These can later become invaluable should you become homeless and find yourself begging on the street.

Patrons leaving the opera house are less likely to ignore you, hurl abuse or tread on you if you have a chestful of war medals. So until the day you get mugged, there's a good chance of building up a good little nest egg to see you through.
 
#15
Brads_REME said:
Cuddles said:
Snagglepuss said:
All well and good Litotes, and I agree entirely with your view, but HM Forces are exempt from the minimum wage laws are they not?
SP
All well and good indeed oh pink and white strped one but it doesn't make it right does it?
No.

But they will just spout the "HM forces are exempt" crap. Why are they exempt? I wonder if someone will ever take them to task over it?
I would suggest they are exempt for reasons of practicalities.

Eg. 1 week exercise --> 24 x 7 x 5.35 = 898.8 per soldier at a minimum. Taking a company minus on a one week exercise would cost at least GBP 60000. And that is just one week's wages.

Still, you would expect the MOD to have the decency to at least match minimum wage based on an 8 hour day.

edited for bad maths.
 
#16
frenchperson said:
Don't be too critical of the MOD on this issue. Despite the low pay, they stand head and shoulders above Butlins' scurrilous, exploitative slavedrivers.

The MOD show full appreciation for your service to the crown. Should you become directly involved in the defence of the realm and lay your life on the line, they issue medals as a token of their gratitude. These can later become invaluable should you become homeless and find yourself begging on the street.

Patrons leaving the opera house are less likely to ignore you, hurl abuse or tread on you if you have a chestful of war medals. So until the day you get mugged, there's a good chance of building up a good little nest egg to see you through.
I think this is goig to be a strange day as I agree with your train of thought. Nobody joining HM Forces should expect to make a fortune. They should expect to go on Active Service. In return they should also expect and get:

a. A decent wage which means that married soldiers don't need tax credits just to live.

b. Decent accomodation.

c. The very best of kit.

d. Membership of a Club that has enough members so that daft Tony and his gang can roule troops, units and formations with a decent gap between tours.

e. In the unfortunate event of injury, a world class military aftercare system with dedicated military hospitals, daycare centres etc.

f. In the case of death, the background knowledge that the system will take care of loved ones financially and emotionally.

Not too much to ask from UKplc is it.?
 
#17
Scabster_Mooch said:
Brads_REME said:
Cuddles said:
Snagglepuss said:
All well and good Litotes, and I agree entirely with your view, but HM Forces are exempt from the minimum wage laws are they not?
SP
All well and good indeed oh pink and white strped one but it doesn't make it right does it?
No.

But they will just spout the "HM forces are exempt" crap. Why are they exempt? I wonder if someone will ever take them to task over it?
I would suggest they are exempt for reasons of practicalities.

Eg. 1 week exercise --> 24 x 7 x 5.35 = 898.8 per soldier at a minimum. Taking a company minus on a one week exercise would cost at least GBP 26000. And that is just one week's wages.

Still, you would expect the MOD to have the decency to at least match minimum wage based on an 8 hour day.
What I was thinking...
 
#18
rickshaw-major said:
frenchperson said:
Don't be too critical of the MOD on this issue. Despite the low pay, they stand head and shoulders above Butlins' scurrilous, exploitative slavedrivers.

The MOD show full appreciation for your service to the crown. Should you become directly involved in the defence of the realm and lay your life on the line, they issue medals as a token of their gratitude. These can later become invaluable should you become homeless and find yourself begging on the street.

Patrons leaving the opera house are less likely to ignore you, hurl abuse or tread on you if you have a chestful of war medals. So until the day you get mugged, there's a good chance of building up a good little nest egg to see you through.
I think this is goig to be a strange day as I agree with your train of thought. Nobody joining HM Forces should expect to make a fortune. They should expect to go on Active Service. In return they should also expect and get:

a. A decent wage which means that married soldiers don't need tax credits just to live.

b. Decent accomodation.

c. The very best of kit.

d. Membership of a Club that has enough members so that daft Tony and his gang can roule troops, units and formations with a decent gap between tours.

e. In the unfortunate event of injury, a world class military aftercare system with dedicated military hospitals, daycare centres etc.

f. In the case of death, the background knowledge that the system will take care of loved ones financially and emotionally.

Not too much to ask from UKplc is it.?
I couldn't have put it better myself!

Litotes
 
#19
The point about the Butlins case is that it gives MP's and others in the public eye who genuinely support their armed forces, a decent line of attack. This govenment knee jerks to every situation, and no doubt will when faced with this shambles

I dont think it will be good enough for the British public if a Govenment minister quotes Minimum Wage exemptions on BBC's Question Time, whilst troops are dying in Afghanistan and Iraq. What Cabinet minister is NOW going to spout that.

An email to your MP might be useful. Any of our brighter sparks care to produce one?
 
#20
Litotes said:
After a quick bit of research, I found that a new recruit to the Services earns £33.32/day.

The minimum wage is £5.35/hr for adults according to the Telegraph.

So, an 8 hour day means that the recruit (up to the age of 33 now...) has only earned £4.17/hr before the MOD charges for accommodation, which includes fuel and light.

So, I'll step up to a Level 1 soldier who is paid £39.24/day. An 8 hour day means that he earns just £4.91/hr and is then charged fuel and light.

Litotes
If you work it out to a 37.5 hour week the new recruit would get £6.22/hr.

Now i know we don't all work a 37.5 hour week hence the x-factor of 13%. Minimum wage + xfactor would still only equal £6.05. So on this basis that new recruit isn't on that bad a thing.

But i take the point about the food and accom. However with PAYD, the food element of the argument would no longer count.
 
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