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Bugsy Strikes Again

#1
Just found this in The Daily Mail. Bugsy is now infecting them with his crap! "The use of weapons was exactly the same on ony other border, including the West german border."

So how many people did the West German Border Guards murder for trying to escape?

Here is his "expert" opinion in full


"There's so much wrong information in this article. The East German Army had around 200,000 members, not a million. Even the Soviet Army stationed in the GDR only had 500,000 members. Erich the Hon was put before a court but it was decided that he was too ill to continue the proceedings. There was never any clear shoot-to-kill order on the borders of the GDR. The use of weapons was exactly the same as on any other border, including the West German border. How do I know? I lived in East Germany for eight years. MsG"
- Bugsy, Nottingham, 24/1/2012 07:02


Read more: Marriage woes of East German president revealed in newly released secret documents | Mail Online
 
G

goatrutar

Guest
#4
There was footage on telly a few years back of some poor buggers in the '50s and '60s getting shot as they were trying to escape to the west.
 
#5
I decided to reappear to make you aware of a few facts.
Just found this in The Daily Mail. Bugsy is now infecting them with his crap! "The use of weapons was exactly the same as on ony other border, including the West german border."
GDR-Border Law, Paragraph 27, gave GDR border guards the justification to use their weapons if their own lives or the lives of others were endangered, or in the prevention of a crime or the apprehension of a criminal if no other method was available. Those are, however, rather general regulations that apply to border-guards all over the world, including the “Bundesgrenzschutz” (Federal German Border Protection Agency) in West Germany, and were also adopted, unaltered, in 1989 by the new GDR government under Hans Modrow.

So how many died on the border and at the Berlin Wall?

The most reliable figures confirm that from 1949 to 1989, i.e. in forty years, 202 people were killed at the Berlin Wall and 331 on the western GDR border, while 181 lost their lives trying to escape via the Baltic Sea. There were also a further 51 people killed on the western borders of other Socialist states (Bulgaria, Hungary, etc). That makes a total of 765 deaths, of which 326 were shot dead, killed by anti-personnel mines or the VM70 remote cannons. 208 people drowned (some of them in Berlin, where the Spree river also formed part of the boundary between the eastern and western sectors of the city and also while trying to swim across the Elbe and other rivers on the border) and 22 of them died while trying to avoid the border-guards or when they were arrested (e.g. from heart-failure). Some were also shot dead after being arrested. 13 committed suicide in custody because they’d failed in their escape endeavours. In addition, from 1961 to 1989, around 46,000 GDR citizens were arrested and sentenced to prison before they even reached the Berlin Wall or the border proper, or just as they were in the act of breaching it.

There are also other hugely inflated death figures provided by Wessi organisations. Some of them even include the 68 folks who died at GDR border crossing-points from natural causes, i.e. heart attacks or massive strokes, between 1965 and 1989. Considering the millions who passed through the border in that period, the vast majority of whom were pensioners both from East and West Germany, such natural deaths, as tragic as they are, can hardly be classed as sinister or suspicious.

Something that’s seldom, if ever, discussed is that, on top of those figures already mentioned, a further 300 or so persons lost their lives on the border. Almost all of such “uncounted” deaths were members of the border-guard regiments.

So how many people did the West German Border Guards murder for trying to escape?
In the so-called “Coffee War” on the West German/Belgian border in the 1950s and 60s, West German Customs and Excise officers shot dead 213 folks and wounded a further 500. Try googling the names: Friedrich Hassfeldt and Hans Schiffer for starters.

And what about the figures on other borders?

According to the United States Border Patrol, 1,954 people died crossing the US-Mexico border between the years 1998 and 2004. In 2004, 460 migrants died crossing the US-Mexico border. In 2005, more than 500 died along the entire US-Mexico border. The number of yearly border crossing deaths has doubled since 1995. In 2009, 417 deaths were reported along the border.

Any death on any border is a tragedy, but it appears that it very much depends on which border the deaths occurred for there to be wholesale condemnation about it.

Mit sozialistischem Gruß, GenossInnen!
 

BugsyIII

On ROPS
On ROPs
#6
In the so-called “Coffee War” on the West German/Belgian border in the 1950s and 60s, West German Customs and Excise officers shot dead 213 folks and wounded a further 500. Try googling the names: Friedrich Hassfeldt and Hans Schiffer for starters.

Mit sozialistischem Gruß, GenossInnen!
Googled and only got your post, plus stuff like lists of authors very boring
bug1.JPG
 
#7
And what about the figures on other borders?

According to the United States Border Patrol, 1,954 people died crossing the US-Mexico border between the years 1998 and 2004. In 2004, 460 migrants died crossing the US-Mexico border. In 2005, more than 500 died along the entire US-Mexico border. The number of yearly border crossing deaths has doubled since 1995. In 2009, 417 deaths were reported along the border.
And your point is? Are you saying the Mexican authorities are killing those who seek to leave? Or the US authorities those who seek to enter? What percentage of these are deaths due to natural causes - dehydration, accidents, etc?

A comparison of apples v kangaroos I fear.
 
#8
I decided to reappear to make you aware of a few facts.

GDR-Border Law, Paragraph 27, gave GDR border guards the justification to use their weapons if their own lives or the lives of others were endangered, or in the prevention of a crime or the apprehension of a criminal if no other method was available. Those are, however, rather general regulations that apply to border-guards all over the world, including the “Bundesgrenzschutz” (Federal German Border Protection Agency) in West Germany, and were also adopted, unaltered, in 1989 by the new GDR government under Hans Modrow.
There are so many things wrong with your post, it's ajob to know where to start! How about this:
Schießbefehl.

Schießbefehl - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
#11
In the so-called “Coffee War” on the West German/Belgian border in the 1950s and 60s, West German Customs and Excise officers shot dead 213 folks and wounded a further 500. Try googling the names: Friedrich Hassfeldt and Hans Schiffer for starters.
I cant find anything on google about what you claim above.

Any more information and some links to information about it would helpfull.
 
#13
There are so many things wrong with your post, it's ajob to know where to start! How about this:
Schießbefehl.

Schießbefehl - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
There was no shoot-to-kill policy, end of. If you google that again, then choose the German language version, you'll see why. Check the figures of how many were indicted and how many were actually sentenced - including all the SED functionaries. You'll be surprised.

I'm in no way defending what happened, since it was murder. It's as I said; it seems to be dependant on which border the deaths occur. Also, you mustn't forget that the Boxheed gobment does everything in its power to discredit the GDR. It really began just after the war and is connected to the West German claim that only they can speak for all of Germany. It was called the "Hallstein-Doktrine". After the Fall of the Berlin Wall, it was continued from 1991, but was then renamed the "Kinkel-Doktrine". Try googling those.

Otherwise, you can google "Kaffeekrieg an der deutsch-belgischen Grenze" and also "Aachener Zeitung/Archiven 1946-4963" for more info on the deaths for smuggling coffee across the border. And on that border there really was a clear and official shoot-to-kill policy. Or, conversely, you could wait until my book "A Very Uneasy Alliance" is published, in which I go into great detail on the subject.

MsG
 
#16
I decided to reappear to make you aware of a few facts.

GDR-Border Law, Paragraph 27, gave GDR border guards the justification to use their weapons if their own lives or the lives of others were endangered, or in the prevention of a crime or the apprehension of a criminal if no other method was available. Those are, however, rather general regulations that apply to border-guards all over the world, including the “Bundesgrenzschutz” (Federal German Border Protection Agency) in West Germany, and were also adopted, unaltered, in 1989 by the new GDR government under Hans Modrow.

So how many died on the border and at the Berlin Wall?

The most reliable figures confirm that from 1949 to 1989, i.e. in forty years, 202 people were killed at the Berlin Wall and 331 on the western GDR border, while 181 lost their lives trying to escape via the Baltic Sea. There were also a further 51 people killed on the western borders of other Socialist states (Bulgaria, Hungary, etc). That makes a total of 765 deaths, of which 326 were shot dead, killed by anti-personnel mines or the VM70 remote cannons. 208 people drowned (some of them in Berlin, where the Spree river also formed part of the boundary between the eastern and western sectors of the city and also while trying to swim across the Elbe and other rivers on the border) and 22 of them died while trying to avoid the border-guards or when they were arrested (e.g. from heart-failure). Some were also shot dead after being arrested. 13 committed suicide in custody because they’d failed in their escape endeavours. In addition, from 1961 to 1989, around 46,000 GDR citizens were arrested and sentenced to prison before they even reached the Berlin Wall or the border proper, or just as they were in the act of breaching it.

There are also other hugely inflated death figures provided by Wessi organisations. Some of them even include the 68 folks who died at GDR border crossing-points from natural causes, i.e. heart attacks or massive strokes, between 1965 and 1989. Considering the millions who passed through the border in that period, the vast majority of whom were pensioners both from East and West Germany, such natural deaths, as tragic as they are, can hardly be classed as sinister or suspicious.

Something that’s seldom, if ever, discussed is that, on top of those figures already mentioned, a further 300 or so persons lost their lives on the border. Almost all of such “uncounted” deaths were members of the border-guard regiments.


In the so-called “Coffee War” on the West German/Belgian border in the 1950s and 60s, West German Customs and Excise officers shot dead 213 folks and wounded a further 500. Try googling the names: Friedrich Hassfeldt and Hans Schiffer for starters.

And what about the figures on other borders?

According to the United States Border Patrol, 1,954 people died crossing the US-Mexico border between the years 1998 and 2004. In 2004, 460 migrants died crossing the US-Mexico border. In 2005, more than 500 died along the entire US-Mexico border. The number of yearly border crossing deaths has doubled since 1995. In 2009, 417 deaths were reported along the border.

Any death on any border is a tragedy, but it appears that it very much depends on which border the deaths occurred for there to be wholesale condemnation about it.

Mit sozialistischem Gruß, GenossInnen!
Just one Q.: How many states have/had anti-personal mines(and similar devices) directed to the INSIDE at their border?

Having lived in the "workers paradise" long enough to sniff propagande from a mile away...it seems to me you bought it. Bet you'd have a 1+ in the "StaBü" classes :p
 
#20
Just one Q.: How many states have/had anti-personal mines(and similar devices) directed to the INSIDE at their border?
As far as I know, North Korea does it too. But that seems to be what totalitarian dictatorships do.
Having lived in the "workers paradise" long enough to sniff propagande from a mile away...it seems to me you bought it. Bet you'd have a 1+ in the "StaBü" classes :p
Aye, I've a very sensitive propaganda sensor. Indeed, I was highly disappointed at the "Socialism" I found in the GDR, because it bore no resemblance at all to what it was supposed to be. So I've no wish to defend the system in any way. What I do defend, however, is that, on an everyday level for the population, there were Socialist elements that, on balance, gave GDR citizens a deep sense of collective-social cohesion, of actually "belonging", and a profound feeling of communal cohesion and peace of mind that's sadly lacking in Capitalism. The folks had job security, free child-care, health-care and free education up to university level. They knew that they'd be able to pay all their bills at the end of the month and the workplace offered a quite astonishing level of democracy, believe it or not. There was also a widespread egalitarian mindset, with a welcome lack of division due to class, education or wealth and society was all the better for it. It was in no way perfect, but by magnitudes better than what we have at the present moment under Capitalism. Or are you saying that the system we have at now is optimal?

MsG
 

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