Brown Calls Cameron 'Unstatesmanlike'

JoeCivvie

ADC
RIP
"Former Prime Minister Gordon Brown has accused David Cameron of risking the future of the United Kingdom.


Speaking on the Murnaghan programme on Sky News, Mr Brown described the prime minister as "unstatesmanlike".


Mr Cameron has said Scottish MPs should be denied full voting rights on issues which affect only England and Wales.


Meanwhile, First Minister Alex Salmond has asked for an investigation into the Treasury's role during the referendum campaign.


He believes civil servants disclosed market-sensitive information about RBS.


Mr Brown said: "It doesn't make sense to do what Mr Cameron suggested the day after the referendum, that Scottish MPs would be second status, second class citizens at Westminster, unable to vote on certain key issues like the income tax rate.


"So the Conservatives have got it wrong. I think they're a hundred per cent wrong on this hundred per cent devolution of income tax.


"They've got to understand that their measures are a gift to the separatists, they would play into the hands into the nationalist party, they would drive a wedge between Scotland and England and make the constitution unstable."


Mr Brown had earlier said Labour, Conservatives and Liberal Democrats should be able to unite round his proposals for a "powerhouse parliament" for Scotland.


His call came ahead of House of Commons debates on Tuesday and Thursday.
"

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29584457

Well boo-hoo-hoo. He really is Gordon Clown.

...
 

NSP

LE
Mr Cameron has said Scottish MPs should be denied full voting rights on issues which affect only England and Wales.

Too damn right. Better late than never.
 

rampant

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Actually I have some sympathy with Brown on this, mainly because statements by Cameron et al are just going to compound the constitutional imbalance of the UK.

By simply maintain the HoL/HoC set up with the three currently devolved Executives (even with extending their powers) he is creating an absolute mess, the idea of English MPs for English issues in that scenario would deny the opportunity of Scottish/Irish/Welsh MPs from holding significant Cabinet posts (eg PM, Chancellor etc) this would create an issue that destroys equality of representation. Essential it would mean that Scots/Welsh/Irish would become second class citizens in their own country. This will only foster separatism and resentment. Every citizen/subject of the UK should have the right to hold the highest positions in the land if so elected by party and the majority of the people.

Fundamental balanced constitutional change is the only thing that will keep the UK going whilst strengthen the participation of the electorate.

Put simply, we need a Federal System wherein England gets her own Parliament with equal devolved powers to that of Scotland etc whilst the HoL/HoC become the new Federal Houses equating to Senate and House of Representatives (they can still be called the HoL and HoC).

Cameron or others simply devolving powers without addressing the constitutional and democratic imbalance of the country will only hasten this country falling apart.

See my posts on the Constitutional Future of the UK.

http://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/where-next-the-constitutional-future-of-the-uk.219417/

If people cannot recognise that then this country is well and truly screwed.
 
If statesmanship is putting the state before your own partisan interests, Brown is entirely right.

Dave's so instinctively Machiavellian, I really doubt he even appreciates the constitutional issues he's set on creating.
 
Actually I have some sympathy with Brown on this, mainly because statements by Cameron et al are just going to compound the constitutional imbalance of the UK.

By simply maintain the HoL/HoC set up with the three currently devolved Executives (even with extending their powers) he is creating an absolute mess, the idea of English MPs for English issues in that scenario would deny the opportunity of Scottish/Irish/Welsh MPs from holding significant Cabinet posts (eg PM, Chancellor etc) this would create an issue that destroys equality of representation. Essential it would mean that Scots/Welsh/Irish would become second class citizens in their own country. This will only foster separatism and resentment. Every citizen/subject of the UK should have the right to hold the highest positions in the land if so elected by party and the majority of the people.

Fundamental balanced constitutional change is the only thing that will keep the UK going whilst strengthen the participation of the electorate.

Put simply, we need a Federal System wherein England gets her own Parliament with equal devolved powers to that of Scotland etc whilst the HoL/HoC become the new Federal Houses equating to Senate and House of Representatives (they can still be called the HoL and HoC).

Cameron or others simply devolving powers without addressing the constitutional and democratic imbalance of the country will only hasten this country falling apart.

See my posts on the Constitutional Future of the UK.

http://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/where-next-the-constitutional-future-of-the-uk.219417/

If people cannot recognise that then this country is well and truly screwed.
It wouldn't stop anyone holding any seat, just prevent an mp from one of the other three from voting.


Posted from the ARRSE Mobile app (iOS or Android)
 

rampant

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
It wouldn't stop anyone holding any seat, just prevent an mp from one of the other three from voting.


Posted from the ARRSE Mobile app (iOS or Android)
I think you misunderstand me, I'm not saying that it wouldn't stop anyone from holding a seat, it is from holding office. By restricting "English Laws" to "English MPs" you would deny offices of State such as Chancellor of the Exchequer to Scottish or Irish MPs for example, as they would not be allowed to draft or propose legislation that affects England.

England needs her own Parliament for devolved issues.
 
If statesmanship is putting the state before your own partisan interests, Brown is entirely right.

Dave's so instinctively Machiavellian, I really doubt he even appreciates the constitutional issues he's set on creating.
But can it not be argued that Brown is also putting "partisan interests" before the "state" as, simply, Labour would likely need the Scottish MP's to be able to pass laws that affect only the rest of the UK?


You want to remove the issue, then you remove the devolved Parliament/Assemblies, saving the country an absolute fortune in the process...
 

alib

LE
If statesmanship is putting the state before your own partisan interests, Brown is entirely right.

Dave's so instinctively Machiavellian, I really doubt he even appreciates the constitutional issues he's set on creating.
Dave and Gideon played the whole IScotia thing for partisan advantage gambling with destroying The Union. Despite Dave nearly soiling himself on the brink of the No vote I'd not expect them to change now.
 
I think you misunderstand me, I'm not saying that it wouldn't stop anyone from holding a seat, it is from holding office. By restricting "English Laws" to "English MPs" you would deny offices of State such as Chancellor of the Exchequer to Scottish or Irish MPs for example, as they would not be allowed to draft or propose legislation that affects England.

England needs her own Parliament for devolved issues.
There are no Irish MPs.
 
Mr Brown said: "It doesn't make sense to do what Mr Cameron suggested the day after the referendum, that Scottish MPs would be second status, second class citizens at Westminster, unable to vote on certain key issues like the income tax rate.
Because they would and should be. There are Scottish members of the Scottish Parliament who would be the first class citizens deciding the bulk of policy in Scotland.

The ones in Westminster would be only having a say in (for example) defence and foreign policy. It would be immoral for anything else to happen - imagine if MPs turned up to the Scottish Parliament to vote with the MSPs!!
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
Pot and kettle the pair of them, CMD is running scared of Farage, Labour have nothing left to lose so can point the sh1tty stick all day long and promise the moon as no one outside of an assylum will vote for them and Farage must be loving it as he is possibly about to become the 2nd party in UK politics all courtesy of the fair weather voters that change the nappies every 5 years!
Clegg you ask? Exactly a spent force soon to be as popular as the green party!
 

NSP

LE
Politicians are exactly like nappies - both need changing often and for precisely the same reason!
 
Pot and kettle the pair of them, CMD is running scared of Farage, Labour have nothing left to lose so can point the sh1tty stick all day long and promise the moon as no one outside of an assylum will vote for them and Farage must be loving it as he is possibly about to become the 2nd party in UK politics all courtesy of the fair weather voters that change the nappies every 5 years!
Clegg you ask? Exactly a spent force soon to be as popular as the green party!
In my opinon the 6 main parties can be classified as such:

Conservatives - have done well on the economy, but are tearing themselves apart over the EU and immigration. Many of their potentially stronger policies have been watered down by their coalition partners. However their GE promises of an EU referendum, English devolution, more tax allowance all appeal to the normal voter.

Labour - have not made their mind up on the EU, immigration, devolution or a whole host of other policies. Their flagship NHS policy consists of writing random numbers on a piece of paper to symbolise new nurses and doctors, then throwing them at people. Confidently reliant on 100% of UKIP membership being ex-Tories and that vast swathes of the north and inner cities will be stupid enough to reelect them, because of what Margaret Thatcher may or may not have done 30 years ago.

UKIP - have benefited well from the Tory infighting. Their 2 flagship policies on leaving the EU and restricting immigration have support from all elements of society, throughout the social spectrum. Their beer swilling, chain smoking, gaffe prone eccentric leader is the kind of bloke the UK just loves. Like Boris.

Liberal Democrats - soon to be an epitaph on the political scene. Their leader Clegg got carried away by some over inflated opinion polling, and sold his soul to satan for the chance of power. By doing so he failed to implement any real liberal policies and will be punished for the tuition fee U turn of his.

Greens - have an MP in the West Sussex hippy commune of Brighton. No surprises there!

Respect - dirka dirka
 

FORMER_FYRDMAN

LE
Book Reviewer
Dave and Gideon played the whole IScotia thing for partisan advantage gambling with destroying The Union. Despite Dave nearly soiling himself on the brink of the No vote I'd not expect them to change now.
All Cameron's doing is responding to the inevitable anomalies created by Gordon Brown's impromptu constitutional meddling. The current situation was inevitable once Labour let the devolution genie out of the bottle (for party political advantage).

The whole process is in danger of becoming a cluster because everything Brown gets involved with lurches inexorably towards disaster - we are where we are at the behest of Scotland and, if they don"t like where the process is going, too bad. They should have thought a bit harder before demanding special treatment and blithely assuming that England would quietly accept it for evermore because the Scots 'were worth it'.
 
Why is Brown getting away with so much anyways, he was delivering promises of things when he wasnt the one in power ?

If there is going to be devolved parliments in each countries within the union, then surely a English parliment would need to be created, and the Westminister parliment be for the Federal government
 
Why is Brown getting away with so much anyways, he was delivering promises of things when he wasnt the one in power ?

If there is going to be devolved parliments in each countries within the union, then surely a English parliment would need to be created, and the Westminister parliment be for the Federal government
He is desperately going to bat for the Labour party, who stand with the most to lose from finally answering the unfair and non Democratic West Lothian Question.
 
Gosh, pot kettle!
Cyclops has come into himself after the Devolution debate. In fact he seems to have woken up from a rather long sleep or was it a sulk!
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
Regarding the in power quoting, can we please refer to these muppets as in office not in power!
 

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