Broken covenant

#2
Jacko will also be on TV's This Morning, later this morning; apparently talking about this very issue (amongst other things).
 
#3
Watched the BBC and they said something along the lines of "An MOD spokesman said implementing the military covenant will take time and money".

That looks to me like an admission that they have not been fulfilling it and have indeed betrayed their sacred duty to the troops.
 
#5
Listened to the head of the RBL on BFBS Radio 2 this morning. She says that the RBL want to highlight 3 key areas. Compensation, Medical care for veterans and the care of bereaved families.

The RBL want the public to contact their MP and this is not so much a dig at the government as more of cross party issue.

Its gonna cost though and the point was made that the purseholder for the last 10 years is now in charge...Nothings gonna happen.
 
#6
I thought the RBL spokeswoman was a little too keen to stress that they work with MoD and the campaign is aimed at the public, not the government.
 
#7
The_Cad said:
Watched the BBC and they said something along the lines of "An MOD spokesman said implementing the military covenant will take time and money".

That looks to me like an admission that they have not been fulfilling it and have indeed betrayed their sacred duty to the troops.
Odd, listening to the radio this morning a 'government spokesman' said something to the effect that the miltary covenant hasn't been broken...
 
#8
The interview withthe minister adn Gen Jackson was interesting. Gen Jackson essentially said that the treasury was oftenthe issue adn got bogged down inthe weeds of the system rather than looking at a just outcome for the individual. He beleived that the system should be robust enough to properly support bereaved families/ injured servicemen and that it should be on the 'front foot' i.e. the claim should be offered not fought for.

The minister more or less accepted the current scheme was not fit for purpose, but would not commit to retrospective changes.
 
#9
Armed forces minister Bob Ainsworth says "significant progress" is being made in many of the areas highlighted by the Royal British Legion, but he admits that "fulfilling our part of the deal is not always easy and takes both time and money".
How about diverting some staff and financial resources from the Chav Support Network a.k.a. benefits office (or whatever the Hell it's called) then?!
 
#10
the bottom line is that the 'wars' are so far away that the majority of Joe Public couldn't give a flying stuff -

yougov / BBC / Mori polls are not an accurate measure of public perception....eg, if a researcher asked 99.999% of people "do you think HMF should get better compensation, treatment, housing etc etc" they would invaribaly says yes, but those same 99.999% people are unlikely to ever turn their actions in to words, ie. march on London.

And, even if they did then march on London (ie, the not in my name war protest) it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference as its not a vote winner.

However, if the Governement pledged £XXbn for the police, new schools and hospitals, that would get JPs' attention, and in turn his votes.

Sadly, the perception of a large part of our 'society' is that Tommy's role is to do and die.
 
#11
Listened to the Five live topic on the covenant this morning and Jackerson General type no doubt still has a wee bit of loyalty to the MoD. According to him there was just a wee bit of dissent by the troops and veterans.Some ministers also spoke up but as usual, they are on a different planet to the rest of us.It certainly has taken the RBL a long time to realise that the covenant was broken by subsequent governments since the war ended.Coincidence that Iraq and Afghanistan are causing big problems that have been there a long time and that no one really cared about the armed forces one bit.A lot of civilians will say well your choice to be in the forces, well you get on with it or get out.The welfare of veterans are run on the same principals of the Dept of Work and Pensions which is just one big joke in that the amount of money you get falls a good bit short of what the law says you need to live on.The armed forces need to be made a special case and bigger increases in pensions and allowances are needed now to bring us up to the level of the Minimum wage. The NHS is being run by quangos and they are out to make money at the expense of those people who are vulnerable in society.But we all have one tool in our hands folks and that is the VOTE, let the ex-service community tell the politicians that they are not doing a good job at taking care of the troops, sailors and airmen of the country in their time of need. :x
 
#12
TartanJock said:
Listened to the Five live topic on the covenant this morning and Jackerson General type no doubt still has a wee bit of loyalty to the MoD. According to him there was just a wee bit of dissent by the troops and veterans.Some ministers also spoke up but as usual, they are on a different planet to the rest of us.It certainly has taken the RBL a long time to realise that the covenant was broken by subsequent governments since the war ended.Coincidence that Iraq and Afghanistan are causing big problems that have been there a long time and that no one really cared about the armed forces one bit.A lot of civilians will say well your choice to be in the forces, well you get on with it or get out.The welfare of veterans are run on the same principals of the Dept of Work and Pensions which is just one big joke in that the amount of money you get falls a good bit short of what the law says you need to live on.The armed forces need to be made a special case and bigger increases in pensions and allowances are needed now to bring us up to the level of the Minimum wage. The NHS is being run by quangos and they are out to make money at the expense of those people who are vulnerable in society.But we all have one tool in our hands folks and that is the VOTE, let the ex-service community tell the politicians that they are not doing a good job at taking care of the troops, sailors and airmen of the country in their time of need. :x
Just who should we vote for to make those changes? Why do you think that our votes are worth anything? What do a few votes mater from people in none-marginal seats?

Sorry for sounding so harsh but I think that our political system is pretty much not representative.
 
#13
goon_bde said:
the bottom line is that the 'wars' are so far away that the majority of Joe Public couldn't give a flying stuff - .
Goon Bde, you are to a great extent, right, and why should they? Have you ever stopped to ask yourself that?

The public's (and therefore the Tax payers', who are reluctantly paying for all this folly) general perception of the actions 'our' troops are involved in at the moment, ie Iraq and Afghanistan, is that they HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH 'US' or 'OUR' Country! Sadly, and it pains me to say, I agree.

NOTHING that happens in those places has anything to do with 'us'! (Except, of course, that the lives of 'our' troops and billions of 'our' pounds are being unnecessarily wasted.)

The 'wars' in Asia Minor are political matters which have nothing to do with the security or defence of our nation state - indeed, if anything, they appear, through their continued foolish prosecution, to only serve to make the lives of those 'at home' more dangerous than they would be otherwise.

It is dreadful that the lives of our young men and women are placed in such mortal danger for no reason what-so-ever, save that of preserving the vanity of a bunch of self-seeking immoral lying politicians, (or, at least, two in particular: Bliar and Bush).

I care because I used to be a soldier. I care about 'our' soldiers, BUT I whole-heartedly disagree with the Labour Party's involvement in these other countries. 'We' feel that what is going on 'over there' is being done on behalf of Labour Politicians, NOT the country as a whole!

You should be asking yourself, firstly 'Why am I doing this?' and then, 'Should I be doing this?'

I doubt you'll have an answer you can live with to the former, except a rather weedy, 'it's my duty to follow orders', and I'd be interested to hear how you answer the latter.
 
#14
Perturbed said:
TartanJock said:
Listened to the Five live topic on the covenant this morning and Jackerson General type no doubt still has a wee bit of loyalty to the MoD. According to him there was just a wee bit of dissent by the troops and veterans.Some ministers also spoke up but as usual, they are on a different planet to the rest of us.It certainly has taken the RBL a long time to realise that the covenant was broken by subsequent governments since the war ended.Coincidence that Iraq and Afghanistan are causing big problems that have been there a long time and that no one really cared about the armed forces one bit.A lot of civilians will say well your choice to be in the forces, well you get on with it or get out.The welfare of veterans are run on the same principals of the Dept of Work and Pensions which is just one big joke in that the amount of money you get falls a good bit short of what the law says you need to live on.The armed forces need to be made a special case and bigger increases in pensions and allowances are needed now to bring us up to the level of the Minimum wage. The NHS is being run by quangos and they are out to make money at the expense of those people who are vulnerable in society.But we all have one tool in our hands folks and that is the VOTE, let the ex-service community tell the politicians that they are not doing a good job at taking care of the troops, sailors and airmen of the country in their time of need. :x
Just who should we vote for to make those changes? Why do you think that our votes are worth anything? What do a few votes mater from people in none-marginal seats?

Sorry for sounding so harsh but I think that our political system is pretty much not representative.
Exactly. Who has stated that they will make these changes?
 
#15
Perturbed said:
TartanJock said:
Listened to the Five live topic on the covenant this morning and Jackerson General type no doubt still has a wee bit of loyalty to the MoD. According to him there was just a wee bit of dissent by the troops and veterans.Some ministers also spoke up but as usual, they are on a different planet to the rest of us.It certainly has taken the RBL a long time to realise that the covenant was broken by subsequent governments since the war ended.Coincidence that Iraq and Afghanistan are causing big problems that have been there a long time and that no one really cared about the armed forces one bit.A lot of civilians will say well your choice to be in the forces, well you get on with it or get out.The welfare of veterans are run on the same principals of the Dept of Work and Pensions which is just one big joke in that the amount of money you get falls a good bit short of what the law says you need to live on.The armed forces need to be made a special case and bigger increases in pensions and allowances are needed now to bring us up to the level of the Minimum wage. The NHS is being run by quangos and they are out to make money at the expense of those people who are vulnerable in society.But we all have one tool in our hands folks and that is the VOTE, let the ex-service community tell the politicians that they are not doing a good job at taking care of the troops, sailors and airmen of the country in their time of need. :x
Just who should we vote for to make those changes? Why do you think that our votes are worth anything? What do a few votes mater from people in none-marginal seats?

Sorry for sounding so harsh but I think that our political system is pretty much not representative.
Thats an excellent point.How the system works in this country now is that if your constituency is a safe Labour or Tory seat you may as well not bother voting!!
Elections are now decided in key marginals in the South East Commuter belt and a few in the West Midlands and the main concern is money,and quality of life.
Not care for our Wounded Soldiers and increasing defence spending.The depressing fact is that people just don't care anymore!!
 
#16
Queensman said:
goon_bde said:
the bottom line is that the 'wars' are so far away that the majority of Joe Public couldn't give a flying stuff - .
Goon Bde, you are to a great extent, right, and why should they? Have you ever stopped to ask yourself that?

The public's (and therefore the Tax payers', who are reluctantly paying for all this folly) general perception of the actions 'our' troops are involved in at the moment, ie Iraq and Afghanistan, is that they HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH 'US' or 'OUR' Country! Sadly, and it pains me to say, I agree.

NOTHING that happens in those places has anything to do with 'us'! (Except, of course, that the lives of 'our' troops and billions of 'our' pounds are being unnecessarily wasted.)

The 'wars' in Asia Minor are political matters which have nothing to do with the security or defence of our nation state - indeed, if anything, they appear, through their continued foolish prosecution, to only serve to make the lives of those 'at home' more dangerous than they would be otherwise.

It is dreadful that the lives of our young men and women are placed in such mortal danger for no reason what-so-ever, save that of preserving the vanity of a bunch of self-seeking immoral lying politicians, (or, at least, two in particular: Bliar and Bush).

I care because I used to be a soldier. I care about 'our' soldiers, BUT I whole-heartedly disagree with the Labour Party's involvement in these other countries. 'We' feel that what is going on 'over there' is being done on behalf of Labour Politicians, NOT the country as a whole!

You should be asking yourself, firstly 'Why am I doing this?' and then, 'Should I be doing this?'

I doubt you'll have an answer you can live with to the former, except a rather weedy, 'it's my duty to follow orders', and I'd be interested to hear how you answer the latter.
Do you really believe that Afghanistan has nothing to do with us? Do you also believe that we should only be worried about UK security?

After the events of 9/11 the Taliban government of Afghanistan at first refused that Al-Queda had any entanglement with the atack. When that was shown to be false they denied that Bin-Lden was in their country. When that was shown to be false they claimed that they where guests and would not ask them to leave. Very trustworthy. Would you prefer we had just let them continue as before?

SECURITY: Should we have stayed out of Kosovo and continued to allow the "ethnic cleansing" to continue?
 
#17
You are not gooing to make a blind bit of difference to JP's perception of the Armed Forces, until you bring it closer to home, and shove it in their faces.

I don't mean just on the news, people desensitise after a while.

We need short public information films broadcast on the mainstream channels. Not propaganda per se , but public information films of the type that used to be made about smoke alarms, pelican crossings and the like.

We need cinema vignettes along the lines of the old Pathe newsreels, but targeted by geographical area. For example, showing the MERCIANS work in cinemas in Stoke, Worcester, Warrington etc etc, featuring local soldiers the public can easily relate to. They also need to feature BFPO addresses the public can write or send stuff to.

We need those same, or developed vignettes to be included in VCD releases. The message has to be got out there.

By it's very definition, reportage cannot give a fully constructed story in one 3 minute bite, but 5 minute mini-films can.

The Army in Iraq and Afghanistan are fighting far from home, and 14th Army syndrome is very much in evidence.

Bring the public and the Armed Forces closer together , and the Covenant can be repaired to the credit of all.
 
#18
Perturbed said:
Do you really believe that Afghanistan has nothing to do with us? Do you also believe that we should only be worried about UK security?

SECURITY: Should we have stayed out of Kosovo and continued to allow the "ethnic cleansing" to continue?
I do believe Afghanistan has nothing to do with us. Afghanistan has spiralled out of all control. Try and think back to what Mr Reid said when he ordered 'us' in there. No shots to be fired etc etc. What was the mission? What's happening now? Madness!

Why shouldn't we only be concerned with UK security and the defence of the Realm? We've got a tiny army that is massively overstretched and ill-equipped. It is also it's own worse enemy with it's Public school boy jolly old 'we can do' attitude! Admirable perhaps, but daft!

We've just been 'defeated' in Basra - despite the political spin and brave face put on it by Army/Mod - the truth of the matter, however unpalatable, is that 'we' were beaten. We did not have enough troops with the right equipment etc etc out there on the ground (this is no way a criticism of the fighting soldier). Why reinforce/support failure?

Kosovo? Hard one this, but why not Zimbabwe, Darfur, or anywhere else the Natives are hacking themselves to pieces?
 
#19
Well put PTP.

I`ve always argued that the public do care, but they dont have a resource to channel that care through. The Broken Covenant is perhaps just the thing needed.

On the other hand most of the public find it hard enough to survive in UK PLC these days, let alone give a sh*t about unpopular foriegn wars. Trouble is no-one wants to pay for anything, Wars, NHS, Benefits, Pensions, lets roll back the state and see what happens, "Military hospitals?"...."nah mate..I`m buying to let, then I`m f*ckin off too Malaga" seems to be a popular response.

Watching the footy in the pub last night my missus started telling people about me being addicted to ARRSE "that squaddie website", when I tried to explain that serious issues were dealt with, such as the Covenant, they went blank and started shifting in their seats, perhaps not the best time for soap boxing, but they were cheering for overpaid English "heroes", whilst theres thousands of underpaid British heroes (regardless of politics) putting their balls on the line in many a sandy place, however, the irony almost crushed me and I had to stop (but not without making them feel bad first) :p

I almost wished for Thatchers jingoism, and that bitch took my milk away! How did we get from Thatcher using a war to getting re-elected to Broon having two wars getting him un-elected? :?

Have we changed that much??
 
#20
Queensman said:
Perturbed said:
Do you really believe that Afghanistan has nothing to do with us? Do you also believe that we should only be worried about UK security?

SECURITY: Should we have stayed out of Kosovo and continued to allow the "ethnic cleansing" to continue?
I do believe Afghanistan has nothing to do with us. Afghanistan has spiralled out of all control. Try and think back to what Mr Reid said when he ordered 'us' in there. No shots to be fired etc etc. What was the mission? What's happening now? Madness!

Why shouldn't we only be concerned with UK security and the defence of the Realm? We've got a tiny army that is massively overstretched and ill-equipped. It is also it's own worse enemy with it's Public school boy jolly old 'we can do' attitude! Admirable perhaps, but daft!

We've just been 'defeated' in Basra - despite the political spin and brave face put on it by Army/Mod - the truth of the matter, however unpalatable, is that 'we' were beaten. We did not have enough troops with the right equipment etc etc out there on the ground (this is no way a criticism of the fighting soldier). Why reinforce/support failure?

Kosovo? Hard one this, but why not Zimbabwe, Darfur, or anywhere else the Natives are hacking themselves to pieces?
Afghanistan has nothing to do with us? Curious, in what way is Afghanistan nothing to do with us? Do you not think that the 9/11 atacks had nothing to do with the way that Afghanistan was administered or is it that you think 9/11 had no direct relevance to the UK?

How have we been defeated in Basra BTW? Please be specific. IMO we pulled out of Basra for the benefit of the local community. Hardly a defeat even though it is also hardly a measurable victory. Where we not supposed to be there to make life better for the locals? If that became untennable it is neither a defeat or victory, just a political reallity.

The politician/s who said the role in Afghanistan could be done without a shot being fired was a liar. Probably lied to allow military hospitals to be closed, I don't know for certain. I guess the w*nker was just saying what he was told to say.

KOSOVO is in Europe. By your own reasoning should we not look to that before Africas problems? Should not Africa (by your own arguments) sort itself out? I would bet that an army that consists of mostly white soldiers would be untrusted by most Africans for historical reasons.
 
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