Brits Jailed in India

crazy_chester

Old-Salt
Presumably that's a joke?



So it's claimed, and it's the one part of the story which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and is never explained.

If they were "marking time" what were they (and the ship) doing in the Bay of Bengal at all? Having a guided tour?



Unfortunately for the security guards that's not relevant to their charge / offence and not a defence in any country.



Any comparable examples?
1) No not a joke. Actually quite normal. Not sure if you work in the sector or not, but it is not uncommon.

2) To me it makes perfect sense that the master of the vessel is in charge of its location and takes responsibility for its movement. Again, not sure if you have ever worked at sea or been in marsec, but the lads in charge of armed security and anti piracy do not routinely navigate the vessel. Even less so when they are on stand down (see above). The vessel had sought permission to enter to avoid a storm according to statements from the master. Whether this is accurate or not, the security team onboard (off duty) would have no power to counter this.

3) Sure, see below:

Arsenal of guns brought to Britain exposes border security failure
 

crazy_chester

Old-Salt
Further to the above, SG Ohio was not escorting any vessel at the time of arrest. So, although not on a "guided tour of the bay on Bengal" as suggested by JohnG above, it does support the fact that the operators onboard were not actively engaged on an armed security task in Indian waters. SG Ohio itself was / is owned by Advanfort
 
D

Deleted 60082

Guest
I sense you are becoming enraged about this and without wishing to add to your fury I would point out that India is one of the countries that is not a signatory to the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court.

However, the UK and Estonia are both signatories. In this sense the UK and Estonia accept an international authority and their criminal justice systems are broadly comparable, whilst India's is not. Don't shoot the messenger.

On another point you raise, if we apply the element of need to service charity funding applications then I would prefer to see my donations go to the families of those convicted, say Blackman as an example, than a disabled ex-serviceman who wants a 3 grand pedal-cycle to compete in the 'warrior games'. That's just me though and I accept that others, like yourself, will hold a different view which I accept, and respect.
A case such as this has nothing to do with the ICC - these weren't crimes against humanity. At the time, FCO consular officers met with the offenders and were present during the court hearings - and conduct of the proceedings was regular. There was no 'political' element to the charges or the sentencing.

Moreover Brits abroad have to get it into their thick skulls that the FCO doesn't fix stupid. If you break a domestic law and the matter has been competently investigated and tried, there's b&gger-all the FCO can do. What the Consulate will do is ensure that you have access to English -speaking solicitors and will facilitate family access, medical referrals etc, but will not interfere in the domestic judicial system.
The days of being set free 'cos you are white are long gone.
 
D

Deleted 60082

Guest
Earlier this year a group of soldiers got involved in the usual 'drinking-flirting with the local girls-local guys get upset -fight-police-arrest' in Turkey whilst on a Battlefield tour. They had been warned. Luckily the DA managed to intervene and persuade the police that as the soldiers were to leave the following day, and that no real harm had been done, perhaps they should consider letting them go? The local police accepted that the individuals would fave military discipline as a result of the incident, so agreed to quietly let them go. However, personally, I preferred that the drunken fools should have been exposed to traditional Turkish hospitality, a la Midnight Express.
 
Earlier this year a group of soldiers got involved in the usual 'drinking-flirting with the local girls-local guys get upset -fight-police-arrest' in Turkey whilst on a Battlefield tour. They had been warned. Luckily the DA managed to intervene and persuade the police that as the soldiers were to leave the following day, and that no real harm had been done, perhaps they should consider letting them go? The local police accepted that the individuals would fave military discipline as a result of the incident, so agreed to quietly let them go. However, personally, I preferred that the drunken fools should have been exposed to traditional Turkish hospitality, a la Midnight Express.
My experience of turkey is somewhat different, an RFA became Opdef after locals decided to ambush the whole flight team. The locals involved got the shit kicked out of them by us and the crew of the Fgs Emden. Much diplomatic/ legal wrangling so ensued.
 
And I will further add, and know you live there crash, Turkey, out of all the places I have been is the only one I would truly never wish to return to. I have been to some shitholes but never witnessed cowardice on such a scale as there.
 
1) No not a joke. Actually quite normal. Not sure if you work in the sector or not, but it is not uncommon.
I think you missed the point. Saying that "if the vessel hadn't entered Indian waters there would have been no issue" is about as absurd as saying that there wouldn't have been an issue for them if Buster Edwards, Ronnie Biggs, etc hadn't been at Bridego Railway Bridge.

They were there, they broke the law, the evidence was clear, and they were tried and convicted.

2) To me it makes perfect sense that the master of the vessel is in charge of its location and takes responsibility for its movement.
Unfortunately for those involved neither they nor you are responsible for legislating or enforcing the laws in India, so whatever "makes perfect sense" to you doesn't matter.

Just because you don't agree with a law doesn't make you immune to it!

Again, not sure if you have ever worked at sea or been in marsec, but the lads in charge of armed security and anti piracy do not routinely navigate the vessel. Even less so when they are on stand down (see above).
No, never worked at sea or in marsec, but I like to think that if I had been I'd have made sure that either I wasn't breaking any local laws or that I'd be amply compensated if I were asked to. Those involved clearly did neither.

The vessel had sought permission to enter to avoid a storm according to statements from the master. Whether this is accurate or not, the security team onboard (off duty) would have no power to counter this.
It's evidently not accurate. The storm wasn't in their area and despite the claim / excuse the Indian authorities were neither asked for nor granted permission to enter Indian waters, with or without weapons.

Sure ... not!

There's no comparison between an Austrian gun nut who was able to openly bring weapons into the UK because of a series of mistakes by the UK Border Force, Myferrylink, French Customs and Austrian authorities who issued him with a European Firearms Pass and incorrect information and this incident.

Nobody else made any mistakes that enabled them to break the law - they simply ignored it and broke it.

Further to the above, SG Ohio was not escorting any vessel at the time of arrest. So, although not on a "guided tour of the bay on Bengal" as suggested by JohnG above, it does support the fact that the operators onboard were not actively engaged on an armed security task in Indian waters. SG Ohio itself was / is owned by Advanfort
Actually it doesn't "support the fact" in any way. It simply begs the question of what they were doing in the Bay of Bengal at all rather than "marking time" where they should have been in the Indian Ocean.

This has, apparently, never been explained either in the media or in court in India which I am sure did not help their case in the Indian courts.
 
D

Deleted 60082

Guest
Earlier this year a group of soldiers got involved in the usual 'drinking-flirting with the local girls-local guys get upset -fight-police-arrest' in Turkey whilst on a Battlefield tour. They had been warned. Luckily the DA managed to intervene and persuade the police that as the soldiers were to leave the following day, and that no real harm had been done, perhaps they should consider letting them go? The local police accepted that the individuals would fave military discipline as a result of the incident, so agreed to quietly let them go. However, personally, I preferred that the drunken fools should have been exposed to traditional Turkish hospitality, a la Midnight Express.
There was some absolutely astounding lack of leadership by some SNCOs who were blind drunk...thereby not able to exercise a practised eye over their troops. Earlier this year several French matelots got invovled in a bar scuffle in Marmaris...they were held for about a month before the TNP dropped the charges and the French DA managed to spring them. They were strangely coy about their experiences whilst in detention, it seems...
 
This might be a common perception, but is not always the case. Robert Semple a 64 year old ex-sapper was kidnapped by AQ in Yemen in 2014 and held for over a year. He was ultimately released after some diplomatic and military intervention. My understanding is that the ABF also quietly looked after his family in his absence.
If there any evidence of that? The bloke hadn't been in the army for at least 30 years and would have been on a fair wedge so what would be the need for ABF to get involved?
 
A case such as this has nothing to do with the ICC - these weren't crimes against humanity. .... There was no 'political' element to the charges or the sentencing.

Moreover Brits abroad have to get it into their thick skulls that the FCO doesn't fix stupid. ... The days of being set free 'cos you are white are long gone.
But it all sounds good, and makes it look as if these were just the good guys doing a thankless job against the odds, who've been unlucky to fall foul of an unfair and unjust system in the third world, and hung out to dry by an uncaring UK FCO and politicians .....
 
D

Deleted 60082

Guest
But it all sounds good, and makes it look as if these were just the good guys doing a thankless job against the odds, who've been unlucky to fall foul of an unfair and unjust system in the third world, and hung out to dry by an uncaring UK FCO and politicians .....
That's right. I'm off to scoff Ferrero Roche and G&Ts this evening while a group of ex-squaddies are b&ggered senseless by a cruel and unjust brown justice system.
 
My experience of turkey is somewhat different, an RFA became Opdef after locals decided to ambush the whole flight team. The locals involved got the shit kicked out of them by us and the crew of the Fgs Emden. Much diplomatic/ legal wrangling so ensued.
And I will further add, and know you live there crash, Turkey, out of all the places I have been is the only one I would truly never wish to return to. I have been to some shitholes but never witnessed cowardice on such a scale as there.
It's funny, I've lived in Thailand for over twenty years and, when I lived near Pattaya, occasionally been asked to be a 'go-between' in similar incidents involving servicemen enjoying a spot of 'r&r' post Herrick / Telic / Cobra Gold, etc, nearly always with similar complaints.

Incidents always involved either Thai working girls / boys who objected to being asked (after the event) to give a '3 for the price of 1' discount, or Thais who weren't working girls / boys being groped. They then usually ended up in a fight, where the Westerners inevitably ended up having ten tons of sh1t kicked out of them, either by a Thai professional kick-boxer part-timing as a doorman or a group of Thais who vastly outnumbered the Toms.

Occadionally they'd be shot or stabbed instead.

In hindsight I don't know what was more tedious: either explaining that there hadn't 'been five of them' who'd jumped them from behind, just the one little brown guy who, fortunately for them, had only kicked them a couple of times or explaining that it wasn't 'cowardice' by their norms for them not to fight 'mano a mano' if you were behaving like a drunken bear wifh a sore head but purely common sense as it wasn't a sport.
 
If there any evidence of that? The bloke hadn't been in the army for at least 30 years and would have been on a fair wedge so what would be the need for ABF to get involved?
Financial assistance from the ABF is confirmed both on the ABF facebook site and in interviews with him.
 
Financial assistance from the ABF is confirmed both on the ABF facebook site and in interviews with him.
Well I suppose someone who has worked in the Oil industry abroad (Probably not paying UK taxes) for 30 years needs a hand out.
 

jim30

LE
Earlier this year a group of soldiers got involved in the usual 'drinking-flirting with the local girls-local guys get upset -fight-police-arrest' in Turkey whilst on a Battlefield tour. They had been warned. Luckily the DA managed to intervene and persuade the police that as the soldiers were to leave the following day, and that no real harm had been done, perhaps they should consider letting them go? The local police accepted that the individuals would fave military discipline as a result of the incident, so agreed to quietly let them go. However, personally, I preferred that the drunken fools should have been exposed to traditional Turkish hospitality, a la Midnight Express.
Typical bloody FCO DA's - nappy wetting individuals with no sense of proper procedures. Thats why we've lost the Empire.

I do find the sense of entitlement by some that the FCO MUST bail them out of their problems astonishing. The FCO is an amazing institution, staffed by some very good people who do what they can to help. But, too many Brits assume that being British means they can break the law with impunity and walk away, and that when the nasty diplomat doesnt break them out of jail and ceremonially shoot the Warden, they think its most unfair.
 
D

Deleted 60082

Guest
Typical bloody FCO DA's - nappy wetting individuals with no sense of proper procedures. Thats why we've lost the Empire.

I do find the sense of entitlement by some that the FCO MUST bail them out of their problems astonishing. The FCO is an amazing institution, staffed by some very good people who do what they can to help. But, too many Brits assume that being British means they can break the law with impunity and walk away, and that when the nasty diplomat doesnt break them out of jail and ceremonially shoot the Warden, they think its most unfair.
Absolutely, FCO staff are a bunch of liberal/socialist wet-pants who don't know how to stand up to Johnny Foreigner.

Like one of my colleagues (a woman who was in her 20s at the time) with a 1st in Ancient History who was undertaking language training in a country that had an insurrection (Not Turkey) and managed her own escape as the Embassy was beseiged. Dressed as a local, she took a 400 mile journey to a (slightly) friendly border in a variety of different means whilst the local police and 'Interior Ministry' troops were looking for her. Bloody liberal arts student.
 
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ches

LE
Absolutely, FCO staff are a bunch of liberal/socialist wet-pants who don't know how to stand up to Johnny Foreigner.

Like one of my colleagues (a woman who was in her 20s at the time) with a 1st in Ancient History who was undertaking language training in a country that had an insurrection (Not Turkey) and managed her own escape as the Embassy was beseiged. Dressed as a local, she took a 400 mile journey to a (slightly) friendly border in a variety of different means whilst the local police and 'Interior Ministry' troops were looking for her. Bloody liberal arts student.
Sounds like Royal Marine christmas party......
 

CD05

Old-Salt
This might be a common perception, but is not always the case. Robert Semple a 64 year old ex-sapper was kidnapped by AQ in Yemen in 2014 and held for over a year. He was ultimately released after some diplomatic and military intervention. My understanding is that the ABF also quietly looked after his family in his absence.
There were some slight differences with this case and the release was mostly down to the diplomatic community "making things work on the day" if you are lifted while working in private security an effort will be made to "help" you but believe me you are at the very bottom of the pile!

How do you think some of the tier one operators would feel going into rescue someone who is better paid than them who knees the risks but still put themselves into that situation!

Your continually banging the drum for the ABF as if I have a problem with them, let me be clear I genuinely don't and I admire the help they give in the same way I do for RBL and H4H (who donate to all service charities) BUT I still believe that with regards the OP these lads have been found guilty and should do their time! The families continually saying " they are veterans they fought for this country etc" frankly annoys me as it has nothing whatsoever to do with what they are imprisoned for!! It's almost like they are veterans so release them! In my view if you do or are part of the crime you do the time.


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