Brits Jailed in India

Yes vagaries of foreign law and all that, they were making good money, don't do the crime if you can't do the time, etc, but I note the assumption here that these security personnel were responsible for the navigation of the ship and for unauthorised refuelling at sea.
 

greyfergie

MIA
Book Reviewer
I thought ships had sovereign status depending on the flag at the bum end.... So whatever arms were aboard came under the auspices of that nations rules?
 

walrusboy

War Hero
I attended an ABF briefing recently and was reassured to hear that the charity are quietly providing pastoral support and not insignificant financial support to the families of those imprisoned. Once they're ours, they're ours forever.

We should not consider India to be the international benchmark of criminal justice.
 

CD05

Old-Salt
Yes vagaries of foreign law and all that, they were making good money, don't do the crime if you can't do the time, etc, but I note the assumption here that these security personnel were responsible for the navigation of the ship and for unauthorised refuelling at sea.
Never meant any assumption on the lads navigating or refuelling etc mate I firmly believe they are/were security only and ended up caught up in it all and unless I'm wrong (which is more than likely) but the ship in question was not authorised to carry arms of that nature nor were they manifested.......apparently! And if they were manifested and legal I've been told that when entering sovereign waters the arms etc should be stored away but ready to be inspected (unsure accurate this is but it makes sense in my tiny army brain)

Long story short I thought it was the weapons issues they have been charged with and not the refuelling therefore it's my belief they knew what weapon systems were being carried and that if proven makes them guilty, they ain't the first or the last to do it or turn a blind eye but they were unlucky enough to be caught! (Hope that all makes sense) to be honest if I were on that contract I'm 90% sure I'd have done the same.


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CD05

Old-Salt
I thought ships had sovereign status depending on the flag at the bum end.... So whatever arms were aboard came under the auspices of that nations rules?
Surely not if your entering another countries waters? I believe even the navy have to work under already in place government/head of state MOU or previously held international conventions.

Any navy people who can go firn on this for us?


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CD05

Old-Salt
I attended an ABF briefing recently and was reassured to hear that the charity are quietly providing pastoral support and not insignificant financial support to the families of those imprisoned. Once they're ours, they're ours forever.

We should not consider India to be the international benchmark of criminal justice.
Maybe I'm reading your post wrong but here goes, I applaud the ABF for the pastrol support etc and this will sound jack but finance wise it should and hopefully does depend on what they have in the bank just now because depending on how long they were doing the maritime security could mean they are very well off however before you read that the wrong way if the families need it and the abf can help then fair play. I disagree with the once they are ours they are ours and shouldn't consider India the benchmark of criminal justice and my reasons are if they have committed or have assisted in committing a crime and breaking another country's laws while in that sovereign state then I believe they fall under that criminal justice system and they take what they are given and appeal etc etc. If they have broken laws and are being justly punished then I personally don't believe the government has any place nor right to step in.


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endure

GCM
Surely not if your entering another countries waters? I believe even the navy have to work under already in place government/head of state MOU or previously held international conventions.

Any navy people who can go firn on this for us?


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We used to do regular runs to Jeddah and every time, before we arrived, we got a 2 page telegram telling us what was forbidden (booze, porn, The Sun, cameras etc.) All of these had to be locked away in the bond. Foreign country, foreign rules.

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endure

GCM
We used to do regular runs to Jeddah and every time, before we arrived, we got a 2 page telegram telling us what was forbidden (booze, porn, The Sun, cameras etc.) All of these had to be locked away in the bond. Foreign country, foreign rules.

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This was merchant navy which the ship in question in this case is. No idea about the RN

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CD05

Old-Salt
We used to do regular runs to Jeddah and every time, before we arrived, we got a 2 page telegram telling us what was forbidden (booze, porn, The Sun, cameras etc.) All of these had to be locked away in the bond. Foreign country, foreign rules.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
That's what I thought mate cheers.


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ACAB

LE
We used to do regular runs to Jeddah and every time, before we arrived, we got a 2 page telegram telling us what was forbidden (booze, porn, The Sun, cameras etc.) All of these had to be locked away in the bond. Foreign country, foreign rules.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
Same in Dubai. We used to transit through and one of guys was caught with a pack of soluble paracetemol and codeine. Prescription only out there.
 
2 pages and no sign of @earth !! something is wrong, very, very wrong
He is still in school. He'll be along soon and the thread will go to......well downhill when we are told of the superiority of the Indian navy and judicial system.
 
Those Briton families should also seek action against the company they were working for.
Agreed

If I recall correctly the company they worked for failed to ensure all permits were in place / misinformed them.

Didnt they also have the misfortune to be picked up just after an Italian group had an incident with an Indian fishing vessel causing massive upset -- thus ended up somewhat as sacrificial lambs.
 

walrusboy

War Hero
Maybe I'm reading your post wrong but here goes, I applaud the ABF for the pastrol support etc and this will sound jack but finance wise it should and hopefully does depend on what they have in the bank just now because depending on how long they were doing the maritime security could mean they are very well off however before you read that the wrong way if the families need it and the abf can help then fair play. I disagree with the once they are ours they are ours and shouldn't consider India the benchmark of criminal justice and my reasons are if they have committed or have assisted in committing a crime and breaking another country's laws while in that sovereign state then I believe they fall under that criminal justice system and they take what they are given and appeal etc etc. If they have broken laws and are being justly punished then I personally don't believe the government has any place nor right to step in.


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Service charities provide help in time of need. If an ex-serviceman is imprisoned in the developing world and there is a risk of losing the family home, and they are eligible, then they should receive some financial protection. Your argument of 'leave them to it', seems to be based on the fact that they worked in a high-risk occupation, were paid handsomely and this outcome was a foreseeable occupational hazard.

With regard to foreign criminal justice systems, it would not be the first time that westerners have been imprisoned in order to obtain a political or diplomatic advantage. I don't know if these people are entirely innocent but, subject to eligibility, they are entitled to be supported. What I do know is that Indian criminal justice does not meet western standards.
 
Agreed

If I recall correctly the company they worked for failed to ensure all permits were in place / misinformed them.

Didnt they also have the misfortune to be picked up just after an Italian group had an incident with an Indian fishing vessel causing massive upset -- thus ended up somewhat as sacrificial lambs.
Security company playing Fast and loose with rules, regulations and contractors lives......say it isn't so:mrgreen:
 

CD05

Old-Salt
Service charities provide help in time of need. If an ex-serviceman is imprisoned in the developing world and there is a risk of losing the family home, and they are eligible, then they should receive some financial protection. Your argument of 'leave them to it', seems to be based on the fact that they worked in a high-risk occupation, were paid handsomely and this outcome was a foreseeable occupational hazard.

With regard to foreign criminal justice systems, it would not be the first time that westerners have been imprisoned in order to obtain a political or diplomatic advantage. I don't know if these people are entirely innocent but, subject to eligibility, they are entitled to be supported. What I do know is that Indian criminal justice does not meet western standards.
I agree with you about service charities providing help in a time of need, on that you won't get an argument from me and as I said if it is means tested and needed then good on the abf! My argument of " leave them to it" is nothing to do with their occupation what I am saying is if the families are means tested and found wanting then if help can be given then it should be however for the sake of conversation should they be means tested and have thousands in the bank with the family home bought and paid for then in my opinion they should receive charitable help and advice but not financial! This is my own opinion however I do believe most if not all service charities now means tests the applicant before deciding on any financial outlay commitment!

It's not the same thing but as a side note you will find that If PSD workers are lifted by some terrorist group they fall to the bottom of the rescue file because it is felt amongst the powers that be that they deliberately put themselves in that position. Should you not agree with that genuinely ask some they will tell you they know nobody is coming for them straight away.

Agreed ref westerners being imprisoned to gain a diplomatic and or political heads up or just to embarrass the government and seek an advantage, every country is guilty of that having said that the uk doesn't tend to imprison them (unless a law has clearly been broken) we seem to prefer quietly returning said person to their own country with a UK banning order!

Like you I don't know if these people are entirely guilty (none of us do!) but I personally believe if they are guilty as in caught bang to rights or found guilty in a criminal trial in which the foreign office oversees (common practice) then they should face the law of the land! I am very aware that the Indian justice system dies not equate to the uk justice system and this is when embassy staff ensure that they are dealt with fairly but at the end of the day IF they have broken Indian laws in Indian land/waters then they should face Indian courts and if found guilty accept their lumps the same as anyone else anywhere else in the world! The fact they are ex forces and as is constantly repeated have fought for their country matters not you break the law you answer for it.


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I don't know if these people are entirely innocent but, subject to eligibility, they are entitled to be supported.
If you read the detail of the reports they're apparently entirely guilty as charged and sentenced.

Legal responsibility lies with them, and if they were unaware of the issues, depending on whether they were ignorant or deliberately mis-informed, financial responsibility lies with their employer who, if responsible, should still be paying them. The ABF shouldn't be responsible for financial assistance to ex-servicemen who broke the law for personal gain who got caught, and that's what this boils down to.
 

CD05

Old-Salt
Security company playing Fast and loose with rules, regulations and contractors lives......say it isn't so:mrgreen:
As they always have done and will continue to do. Have you read the book Blackwater? What they got away with is goppin! Im not 100% but I'm pretty sure I read in a UK PSD book that there is some loophole in law that means PSD companies do not have to report the injuries and or deaths of their foreign based employees through the normal channels hence why we rarely hear of injured or killed PSD operators which apparently happens with worrying regularity.


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walrusboy

War Hero
The ABF shouldn't be responsible for financial assistance to ex-servicemen who broke the law for personal gain who got caught, and that's what this boils down to.
Your post raises a number of interesting points. Firstly the ABF and other service charities support ex-servicemen and their families based on need. Secondly, I suspect that neither of us know the full facts of this particular case beyond what is available in open sources. Thirdly, the 'personal gain' you speak about is what? A well paid job? Finally, as I stated earlier Indian criminal justice does not meet international standards. You only have to read the widespread international reporting of Indian rape investigations to understand this.

The key point is that service charities are a safety net for those in need. It doesn't matter what you think of the individuals, it's the families left behind that might need the support. Another recent example is Alexander Blackman. If his family was in need, should support be denied because he is convicted? I personally don't think so and I'm content for my ABF/RBL contributions to be used in this way.
 

wheel

LE
The test I always apply is "How would we react if the foreign country in questions PM demanded we freed their people here for similar offences".

I'm afraid that they've been found guilty of a crime in a court of law and will have to do the time. I can't see any reason why the PM should get involved, and as these sort of diplomatic requests always eat away at the available pool of diplomatic 'brownie points' that we may need to draw on for a genuinely worthwhile case, rather than people willing to get on the maritime security gravy train.

The idea that the PM can magically get someone released for committing a crime is sweet, but ultimately pointless. The world is full of places with odd laws, lengthy prison sentences and the ability to catch out the unwary. If you choose to go into a risky line of work, do so with your eyes wide open and a willingness to do time if caught, rather than expect the UK to bail you out due to your own lack of preparedness.
Very well put.
 

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