Britons are frightened of their own young

[Pierrepoint]

I know many proper working people from the post war era who refused to touch their trade union with a barge pole. Thatcher didn't do for the unions - the unions did for the unions, when they ceased to truly represent their members, instead becoming a plaything of the politically motivated, thus losing the sympathy of the country as a whole, sick of being messed about by them. Thatcher wasn't just voted in by the cravat wearing classes.

A number of friends work for London underground, some as well paid drivers. They belong to what could reasonably be called a 1970s-style trade union, one of the few left in Britain. They're highly democratic - ballots coming out of their ears - have a general secretary, Bob Crow, who doesn't mince his words and won't take $hit from anyone, they're widely hated by the London media and London politicians, and will go on strike at the drop of a hat should their interests be threatened.

In other words, a bunch of people who haven't forgotten how to look after their mates, stick together, give some upstart little Hitler manager a bloody nose should they find his hand in their pocket. That's how the British white working class used to be. It's pathetic they took Thatcher's shilling, sold out their mates, bought their council houses, and now are at the mercy of the unregulated international labour market, and find their communities disintegrating around their ears.

Are you suggesting that London ASLEF and RMT members are "playthings of the politically motivated"? If so, why do tube workers keep voting in secret ballots, with high turnouts and majorities, to support the militant policies of their leaderships? Has Bob Crow hypnotized them?



It’s always the same: if workers get themselves organised, demand a say in their industry, refuse to swallow a load of PR bilge from some w*nker in a snazzy suit, they’re being “manipulated” by “politically motivated people.”

Balls. They’re just doing what the British white working class always used to do before Thatcher turned them into burger-fodder. It’s one reason why many people get so angry about tube workers. They’re secretly jealous and humiliated that they’ve allowed themselves to be shat upon, and have betrayed what their fathers and grand-fathers worked so hard to achieve.

Whilst I don't think much of the bloke, Bob Crow is a little brighter than some of his predecessors in that he manages to combine his political views with an undoubted connection to his members. Unlike, perhaps, Andy Gilchrist. More lamb passander anyone?

The destruction of working class community spirit you refer to is certainly a reality, and I would agree that policies from the Thatcher era contributed significantly towards that (and was, perhaps the major factor in, say, mining towns). However, I would suggest (based upon conversations with older people) that this is actually a wider social change that started even earlier, and was possibly an unwelcome side-effect of greater social mobility.

Harking back to the 50's is as dull as blaming the 60's, but as I wasn't in either decade, I can avoid that trap. It has, however, been explained to me that possibly the greatest change since then is that people cared what their neighbours thought. About them, about their children, about everything. This peer pressure made everyone rub along much better, whatever their income group.

The growth in selfishness is allied to both the growth in self-expression/freedom from the 60's and the growth of self-interest in the 80's. Society has just changed. Organised labour was certainly one facet of greater social cohesion, but so was, for example, greater religious observance and church attendance, and Thatcher didn't explicitly target those.

I agree, of course, that the destruction of British white working class political power, as exercised formerly through their trade unions, is only one factor in a complex mix. But as every soldier knows, if you stick a gun in someone’s face you tend to get their attention. They stop waffling and may do as you say or, at least, be willing to negotiate.

That was the position, industrially and politically, of the British white working class from roughly 1940 to 1985. That's what Thatcher broke. Until then they could turn off a power station or stop the supply of steel which, just like a gun in the face, forced politicians take account of their interests. They had a proud voice in British national political and economic life.

All that's gone, unlike their economic equivalents in the rest of Western Europe, who still have strong trade unions and, therefore, a real say in the political life of their nations. It's a gross humiliation for British white working class people. No amount of Grecian pillar-adorned purchased council houses make up for the loss of that pride and power.

If anyone tells me that the political emasculation of the British white working class has not had a profound effect on communities across the UK I'll tell them they're talking rubbish. You can’t smash key social group's political power without that having a profound effect upon their culture.

**** THAT!

Thatcher was a goddesss.

Her only failing was to disband the SPGs. A few more truncheons aronund the heads of Chav scum and this country wouldn't be in the state that it is.

No surprise that Annekey's friends are troglodytes.

Pinko ******.

 

[annakey]

Balls. They’re just doing what the British white working class always used to do before Thatcher turned them into burger-fodder. It’s one reason why many people get so angry about tube workers. They’re secretly jealous and humiliated that they’ve allowed themselves to be shat upon, and have betrayed what their fathers and grand-fathers worked so hard to achieve.

Actually the reason people get so angry about 'tube workers', and similar, is that they are sick and tired of well-paid, feather-bedded employees

Many tube workers are badly paid, and do a difficult job in rat-infested, dangerous surroundings. Only a minority are drivers on c. £40,000 p.a., a wage they've fought for via a generation of industrial militancy.

The bloke you see on the ticket barrier, or checking the platforms for AQ bombs, is paid a pittance. I appreciate you're an ignorant little man, attacking and lying about a group of generally low paid workers, but at least get basic facts right.

causing havoc

That's the point of a strike. To force the employer to the negotiating table. What are they supposed to do, write a letter to their MP?

amongst people who just want to get to work and get on with their lives

If you bothered to check the polls you'd see how high a proportion of the public support the tube workers, especially when striking over safety. OK, there are idiots who gulp the tripe served up by the Evening Standard, but polling shows Londoners want a safe, modern tube run by a well-motived, properly paid workforce. The propaganda-infected idiots should be told to go boil their heads. It's people like you who are the real enemy, arguing for a return to the unsafe mayhem of the 1980s and 90s.

in order to further the rather selfish petty ends of their over-paid, bloated, rather pathetic little leaders such as Bob Crow.

You poor wee fella, to have run out of argument so quickly.

The man has a small IQ

Proof?

but a high-level of animal cunning

Proof?

This, combined with his natural vindictiveness

Proof?

over-inflated ego

Proof?

and instinctive hate of anybody who is more intelligent than he

Proof?

leads to the perpetuation of a silly little class war that most people left behind them many years ago.

Kindly explain why banding together with your workmates, forming an effective trade union, balloting in accordance with Britain’s stringent industrial relations laws, and taking legal strike action to further negotiations with an employer, is "perpetuating a silly little class war"? Go on. Let's hear some argument.

The current levels of yobbishness, boorish behaviour, and violence in Britain are nothing to do with any particular party, and certainly not the overdue dismantling of inefficient state industries by Thatcher. It's more due to the prevailing and false liberal consensus that nobody is responsible for their own actions; the fallacy that criminal/anti-social behaviour is an effect of poverty and deprivation (which in absolute terms simply does not exist in the UK); that everybody is equal and that if somebody is better dressed, more articulate, or richer than somebody else then that is unfair and must be righted; the extension of the benefits system which ensures that generations think that life is about watching TV, with their already generous benefits supplemented by a spot of dealing in stolen and counterfeit goods; the socialist notion that the world can be righted by state intervention; a policy of dumbing down education through the creeping cancer of state schools; and the iniquitous policy of redistribution of wealth to right the effects of having an uneducated workforce.

There's some truth in that. The problem has both political and cultural roots. But the fact remains that a major shift in political power away from ordinary Brits to the state occurred when Thatcher destroyed the unions. You can't humiliate a key group of people in that way and expect no blow-back. But it's a subject which many people would rather not see talked about.

These are the causes, coupled with an inability of the State to take corrective action, and your British Leyland-inspired beliefs and views merely ensure that the cancer continues to thrive.

I'm proud of my "British Leyland-inspired beliefs" if by that you mean ordinary people getting off their backsides, combining with friends and neighbours, and doing something effective for themselves about a shitty employer, a state snooping into people's private business, a rapacious property developer stripping a neighbourhood of low-cost housing, a local factory wrecking the environment, whatever. If they listened to people like you they’d stay at home, watching Wogan on the telly, waiting for Harriet Harman to sort out their problems. That's probably what you want. Fortunately there are lots of normal, decent people around who laugh in your face.

 

[fuctifino]

MY BOLD

There are several references. Or, better still, visit a Latin country - France, Italy, Spain - sit in a pavement cafe of an evening and observe.

Taking the word "Latin" in it's common usage, I would question the inclusion of France to be totally honest, although if you must use the word in reference to a country where the origin of the primary spoken language is Romance, then I'll see your France and I'll raise you Haiti, in fact I'll throw in any sub-Saharan Africa Nation as well, they all speak french or a derivation thereof. My, what shining examples of peace harmony and brotherly love they are too.

It's bloody obvious the British have an historic problem with children. They hate the little buggers.

Curious how you refer to the British in the third person, it demonstrates a certain degree of detachment from firstly the nation and when taken in conjunction with the remainder of your comments, reality itself.

Because the Thatcher effect is still working through the system. What she did was revolutionary. It will take several generations for the damage to be repaired. It people go out and vote for Cameron and his Etonian chums it will take even longer. Entirely up to you.

Yes, Wolfie, Power to the People, indeed comrade, here's a good idea, lets all go on strike I'm sure everyone will see the funny side of basic services failing around them, even worse than they are under this current shower you seem so fond of, in fact let's bring back the 1970's in all their glory. Utter cobblers; now, will someone please put this Troll out of my misery

 

[Hairy_Hacker]

Given how much the British traditionally hate their children and what Thatcher's politicians did to the white working class (in particular) in the 1980s (whose children and grandchildren the article is about) I think British children are remarkably functional. You can't s*** on people from a great height and then expect their offspring to be little goody two shoes.



That's Thatcher's legacy (and those who voted for her) which the current government has gone a small way to reversing. It will be amusing to see whether the British decide to do it all over again should there be a major recession which the poor are, again, expected to pay for.

"Given how much the British traditionally hate their children" - where did you pull that claptrap from? Back it up please.

Read the article. There are several references. Or, better still, visit a Latin country - France, Italy, Spain - sit in a pavement cafe of an evening and observe. You'll see family after family taking the night air, laughing and chatting, often three generations together, the kids well dressed, under control, not alienated from their family. Just normal people enjoying family life.



Keep that image in your mind.



Compare to Britain.



See?



It's bloody obvious the British have an historic problem with children. They hate the little buggers.

So in other words it's your opinion from what you got out of the article?

I would differ in what I got from it.



Compare how others treat their kids with how we treat ours?

Some treat them worse, some better. Wow. what a revelation.



Visit various countries and see for myself these differences? I've lived in various parts of this country and seen sometimes huge differences. I've also lived abroad and travelled extensively. Guess what? Same story.

No country has a monopoly on treating/ mistreating their kids.



As an avid History Channel watcher I cannot name a single culture on record who would have described themselves as hating their kids.



Even so I can only comment on what I see. I wouldn't say that just because I saw a Greek/ Latin American parent etc laughing and playing with their child that they are traditionally wonderful parents. Just because you believe or someone tells you it's a tradition doesn't make it so.



Finally I am British. I have three kids - ages range from 18 to 2 years.

Can't say I hate them and they seem happy enough. So thanks for that accusation.

"what Thatcher's politicians did to the white working class (in particular) in the 1980s (whose children and grandchildren the article is about)" - that would be people like myself who have worked since age 16, paid their taxes and served too then?

If you voted Thatcher then you share the responsibility, yes. It's your fault. She destroyed the organised British white working class when she pulverized their trade unions, a symbol of pride and self-confidence and genuine political power going back to 1906 and beyond. Until the conclusion of the miner's strike in 1985 any Brit could join a trade union and enjoy real political power. They're now reduced to selling burgers, bossed about by some under-manager in monkey suit. That's what Thatcher did, and those who voted for her, the very people who now complain about dysfunctional British youth culture.



Of course it's dysfunctional. You can't destroy a class's political power and expect their offspring to behave normally.

Firstly I was too young to vote. I was born in the 1970's.

Secondly this country has a flavour of democracy that ensures that a Parliamentary majority is usually an electoral minority in terms of people who can vote. Not truly democratic and therefore I would not accept blame for those in power anyway. I believe I have no real say in who fecks me about in this country.

Thirdly even if you are in the minority and don't give your last to bring down this obvious tyrant then surely you share the responsibility too?



Collective responsibility and all that.



Quite apart from the point that we used to get bullied by the unions, now it's the employers (very broadly speaking). So same game just different players. At least employers try and turn a profit.

"which the current government has gone a small way to reversing" - how? that's why it appears matters are worse than 10 years after Tory rule and 17 years after Thatcher?

Because the Thatcher effect is still working through the system. What she did was revolutionary. It will take several generations for the damage to be repaired. It people go out and vote for Cameron and his Etonian chums it will take even longer. Entirely up to you.

"What she did was revolutionary" you said it all. The Industrial Revolution was unpopular with the cottage industries etc - deservedly so. I'd still say it was progress though. Would you like to undo that too?



Plus you only need a few years to undo what has gone before. Ask the Khmer Rouge for a few pointers.

 

[Counter-Bluffer-Ops]

I'm proud of my "British Leyland-inspired beliefs"

Yep, having just laughed my way through your Facebook entry I too am well and truly inspired. Almost feel like thrashing the butler.

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=98930005

Classics on the first page alone include:

Who I'd like to meet: kool peeps, djs, lifestyle anarchists, band dudes Films: anyfing with kool peeps, djs etc

Annakey's Interests: This myspace site is run horizontally and voluntarily without leaders and hierarchies, by everyone for everyone. Nobody gets paid, nobody is making any profit. There is no 'executive'. There are no "rules" man. This reflects the kind of society I want to live in – it’s all about self-organisation and mutual aid. You see, for me running a myspace site is too important to be left to politicians, experts or corporations. Instead, it’s up to common people like me to do it.

........and of course there is this one. Exact match with your home page on ARRSE, and the following comment from one of this site's members has some astounding similarities with the opinion of many ARSSE members

"lol it's annakey get off my turf scum-bag"

http://coolestradio.com/forum/member.php?u=9

For a man of 48 you're truly inspiring and you've definitely left your mark (well on your underpants anyway).