Discussion in 'The Intelligence Cell' started by HarryPalmer, Apr 3, 2008.
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Given how much the British traditionally hate their children and what Thatcher's politicians did to the white working class (in particular) in the 1980s (whose children and grandchildren the article is about) I think British children are remarkably functional. You can't s*** on people from a great height and then expect their offspring to be little goody two shoes.
Glad to see the article mentions Camila Batmanghelidjh, the founder of Kids Company. She works with some of the hardest, most vulnerable children in Britain and is on record as describing them as "like suicide bombers." They're so f***ed up by violence, sexual abuse, the absence of love, and economic deprivation they're highly dangerous people to share public space with. They feel they have nothing to lose, are emotionally "dead" so are capable of doing vile things to anyone they cross paths with.
That's Thatcher's legacy (and those who voted for her) which the current government has gone a small way to reversing. It will be amusing to see whether the British decide to do it all over again should there be a major recession which the poor are, again, expected to pay for.
"Given how much the British traditionally hate their children" - where did you pull that claptrap from? Back it up please.
"what Thatcher's politicians did to the white working class (in particular) in the 1980s (whose children and grandchildren the article is about)" - that would be people like myself who have worked since age 16, paid their taxes and served too then?
"which the current government has gone a small way to reversing" - how? that's why it appears matters are worse than 10 years after Tory rule and 17 years after Thatcher?
"It will be amusing to see whether the British decide to do it all over again should there be a major recession which the poor are, again, expected to pay for." - Seems we're all paying for 'it' now. Whatever 'it' is.
Thatcher did nick my school milk though. Bitch.
So what exactly would be the point? Just to try and scare the locals?
ROE would be what exactly? How would your patrol react to being stoned? They would have to run away, not exactly scary.
Unless the patrols are given dentention/arrest authority and a "not many questions asked" approach to crowd control they would be pretty useless.
Yes, it would have to be her wouldn't it?
Blaming 'Thatch' for everything bad that has occurred in the subsequent 3 decades is as dull & lazy as Right wing politicians blaming the permissiveness of the 1960's for everything bad ever since.
I hold no candle for any party, but significant elements of the 'working class' (if that term means anything) did rather well out of Thatcherism, just as significant elements of the new 'upper class' have done particularly well out of New Labour.
Furthermore, I think the issues here run far deeper than the 'amusement' of party politics in any case.
Edited to add: agree with HH over school milk however. Even if it wasn't ever cold enough.
Read the article. There are several references. Or, better still, visit a Latin country - France, Italy, Spain - sit in a pavement cafe of an evening and observe. You'll see family after family taking the night air, laughing and chatting, often three generations together, the kids well dressed, under control, not alienated from their family. Just normal people enjoying family life.
Keep that image in your mind.
Compare to Britain.
It's bloody obvious the British have an historic problem with children. They hate the little buggers.
If you voted Thatcher then you share the responsibility, yes. It's your fault. She destroyed the organised British white working class when she pulverized their trade unions, a symbol of pride and self-confidence and genuine political power going back to 1906 and beyond. Until the conclusion of the miner's strike in 1985 any Brit could join a trade union and enjoy real political power. They're now reduced to selling burgers, bossed about by some under-manager in monkey suit. That's what Thatcher did, and those who voted for her, the very people who now complain about dysfunctional British youth culture.
Of course it's dysfunctional. You can't destroy a class's political power and expect their offspring to behave normally.
Because the Thatcher effect is still working through the system. What she did was revolutionary. It will take several generations for the damage to be repaired. It people go out and vote for Cameron and his Etonian chums it will take even longer. Entirely up to you.
Agreed. What a poorly researched article, anyone can create a piece based on anecdotes and fear.
My fav bit of nonsense was the "30 Years" of football violence....did it start thirty years ago? Has our Football violence not decreased in comparison to the safe havens of Holland/Germany and Italy?
As opposed to working in a failing factory making rubbish things that no-one wanted to buy, being bossed about by up their-arrses shop stewards?
Nothing really changes for those at the bottom (except now, of course, you can also have the treat of having your wages undercut by overseas workers who will work for less and send the cash home).
I know many proper working people from the post war era who refused to touch their trade union with a barge pole. Thatcher didn't do for the unions - the unions did for the unions, when they ceased to truly represent their members, instead becoming a plaything of the politically motivated, thus losing the sympathy of the country as a whole, sick of being messed about by them. Thatcher wasn't just voted in by the cravat wearing classes.
Your comment about British v European attitudes to children is spot on, but ditch the misty-eyed Red Flag romanticism please?
I notice no one is addressing the "advice" of the Police to stay home.
I thought personal alarms took care of this sort of thing?
It sounds like no one tried to defend themselves, so at least they went to their death being PC, eh?
Camila Batmanghelidjh couldn't find her fat, "blended heritage" arrse with both hands and a maglite. Real social issues cant be solved with her own personal blend or person centred, humanistic, psychotherapy bullshÂ¦t. Maybe if we pandered less to them, treated them less like poorly treated refugees of the modern world and more like the ill disciplined, lazy criminals they are, we wouldn't have this problem.
The police (and their NuLabour Home Office masters) have to shoulder their fair share of blame in this as well. The authoritarian creation of more and more laws regulating daily behaviour, combined with a target culture in the police and the removal of discretion means that the police are complicit in criminalising children for non-events (playing hop scotch etc) whilst avoiding tackling the real problems.
Arresting children for playground fights hardly helps foster a healthy society - although to be fair to the police, it is someone else who gets them involved in these cases, rather than being more, well, adult.
A number of friends work for London underground, some as well paid drivers. They belong to what could reasonably be called a 1970s-style trade union, one of the few left in Britain. They're highly democratic - ballots coming out of their ears - have a general secretary, Bob Crow, who doesn't mince his words and won't take $hit from anyone, they're widely hated by the London media and London politicians, and will go on strike at the drop of a hat should their interests be threatened.
In other words, a bunch of people who haven't forgotten how to look after their mates, stick together, give some upstart little Hitler manager a bloody nose should they find his hand in their pocket. That's how the British white working class used to be. It's pathetic they took Thatcher's shilling, sold out their mates, bought their council houses, and now are at the mercy of the unregulated international labour market, and find their communities disintegrating around their ears.
Are you suggesting that London ASLEF and RMT members are "playthings of the politically motivated"? If so, why do tube workers keep voting in secret ballots, with high turnouts and majorities, to support the militant policies of their leaderships? Has Bob Crow hypnotized them?
Itâs always the same: if workers get themselves organised, demand a say in their industry, refuse to swallow a load of PR bilge from some w*nker in a snazzy suit, theyâre being âmanipulatedâ by âpolitically motivated people.â
Balls. Theyâre just doing what the British white working class always used to do before Thatcher turned them into burger-fodder. Itâs one reason why many people get so angry about tube workers. Theyâre secretly jealous and humiliated that theyâve allowed themselves to be shat upon, and have betrayed what their fathers and grand-fathers worked so hard to achieve.
Whilst I don't think much of the bloke, Bob Crow is a little brighter than some of his predecessors in that he manages to combine his political views with an undoubted connection to his members. Unlike, perhaps, Andy Gilchrist. More lamb passander anyone?
The destruction of working class community spirit you refer to is certainly a reality, and I would agree that policies from the Thatcher era contributed significantly towards that (and was, perhaps the major factor in, say, mining towns). However, I would suggest (based upon conversations with older people) that this is actually a wider social change that started even earlier, and was possibly an unwelcome side-effect of greater social mobility.
Harking back to the 50's is as dull as blaming the 60's, but as I wasn't in either decade, I can avoid that trap. It has, however, been explained to me that possibly the greatest change since then is that people cared what their neighbours thought. About them, about their children, about everything. This peer pressure made everyone rub along much better, whatever their income group.
The growth in selfishness is allied to both the growth in self-expression/freedom from the 60's and the growth of self-interest in the 80's. Society has just changed. Organised labour was certainly one facet of greater social cohesion, but so was, for example, greater religious observance and church attendance, and Thatcher didn't explicitly target those.
Actually the reason people get so angry about 'tube workers', and similar, is that they are sick and tired of well-paid, feather-bedded employees causing havoc, amongst people who just want to get to work and get on with their lives, in order to further the rather selfish petty ends of their over-paid, bloated, rather pathetic little leaders such as Bob Crow.
The man has a small IQ but a high-level of animal cunning. This, combined with his natural vindictiveness, over-inflated ego, and instinctive hate of anybody who is more intelligent than he, leads to the perpetuation of a silly little class war that most people left behind them many years ago.
The current levels of yobbishness, boorish behaviour, and violence in Britain are nothing to do with any particular party, and certainly not the overdue dismantling of inefficient state industries by Thatcher. It's more due to the prevailing and false liberal consensus that nobody is responsible for their own actions; the fallacy that criminal/anti-social behaviour is an effect of poverty and deprivation (which in absolute terms simply does not exist in the UK); that everybody is equal and that if somebody is better dressed, more articulate, or richer than somebody else then that is unfair and must be righted; the extension of the benefits system which ensures that generations think that life is about watching TV, with their already generous benefits supplemented by a spot of dealing in stolen and counterfeit goods; the socialist notion that the world can be righted by state intervention; a policy of dumbing down education through the creeping cancer of state schools; and the iniquitous policy of redistribution of wealth to right the effects of having an uneducated workforce.
These are the causes, coupled with an inability of the State to take corrective action, and your British Leyland-inspired beliefs and views merely ensure that the cancer continues to thrive.
Separate names with a comma.