British volunteers answer armys call

#1
The North of England is not only home to muslims who volunteer elsewhere....

AT FIRST sight Ben and his mates could be at a wedding party on the lawns of an hotel in his native Yorkshire.

Except that this hotel is a short drive from the Israel-Lebanon border and, despite his Leeds accent, Ben is an Israeli soldier.

Earlier in the day he was ducking Hezbollah mortars in the Lebanese village of Adessa, just across the border. Now he sits chatting in two languages about two lives — as a would-be medical student in Britain and as an Israeli soldier known among his colleagues for his stamina and ability to carry a heavy machinegun over long distances ( I bet his section loves him :D ).

“My father is very supportive,” he tells The Times. “My mum is a bit anxious.”

He says he feels more relaxed as a devout, skull cap-wearing Jew walking around Israel than in Leeds where he has been “spat at and called a dirty Jew” by Muslim youths. “Here I can walk around at 2am without looking over my shoulder.”


Article in full

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2302119,00.html
 
#2
Hmmm...I bet those Muslim youths pray that "Ben" doesn't bring that HMG home to Leeds with him. How does the Enlistment in Foreign Wars Act apply to British Jews serving in the IDF incidentally? I am surprised that there hasn't been a question asked in the House yet. I think I may have to have a word with my MP...
 

Mr Happy

LE
Moderator
#3
Cuddles said:
Hmmm...I bet those Muslim youths pray that "Ben" doesn't bring that HMG home to Leeds with him. How does the Enlistment in Foreign Wars Act apply to British Jews serving in the IDF incidentally? I am surprised that there hasn't been a question asked in the House yet. I think I may have to have a word with my MP...
I think the Jews who carry foreign passports get an exemption. I used to work with an ex-Dutch Copper who was also an ex Isreali Soldier who was also an Ex Dutch RM. I think the Jewish population get an OK to go fight pass whereas the say a muslim wanting to join a jihad doesn't (but realistically, plenty went to fight in the Iran Iraq war in the 80s (ditto Afghanistan vs Sov's or Bosnia vs Serb-Croats) and nobody appeared to mind).
 
#4
However, he has not yet decided to emigrate, and concedes that it may take time to process experiences beyond the imagination of his British peers. “I don’t know how I will feel in the long term. In the near term, everyone has a task. The time for dilemmas will come later.

“It’s not an attitude of shoot first, ask questions later. It’s an attitude of ‘rockets are falling on our citizens and country and it’s our job to defend them’.”
Evidently doesn't consider himself British any longer.
 
#5
When this US / UK / UN force goes in (it looks likely)

Are UK forces going to be allowed to engage "Ben" or will a human rights lawyer and some observers and journalists, bring in some unheard of moral angle whereby HMF were at shooting HM citizens?
 

Mr Happy

LE
Moderator
#6
At that stage I think Lil' Ben may be in danger of treason should he/his unit/army get into a shooting event with the British Soldiers serving with the UN, at which point I think his 'licence to soldier with the Israeli army' won't save him from probable prosecution. In reality of course the Brit governemnt will just let him off and MI6 will probably try to recruit him... if he went to a decent uni.
 
#7
A person holding dual-nationality is not protected by the possession of a British passport from being required to do national service. Thus a British Jew holding dual nationality would be subject to call up regardless given Israel's conscription policies.
Further you need to bear in mind that there will be Lebanese and Palestinians who also hold dual-nationality, and they too may be subject to conscription or may chose to fight for any of the Lebanese forces. In addition reports indicate that a number of foreign nationals have volunteered to participate in PLO, Hamas and Hezbollah over the years. Of the 10,000 British citizens in Lebanon a large proportion are likely to have dual nationality.
The issue of multiple nationalities has existed for a very long time and at times of crisis like this raises it head.

It is not a crime for a UK national to fight in a foreign army, unlike in some other countries.
 
#10
Cuddles said:
Hmmm...I bet those Muslim youths pray that "Ben" doesn't bring that HMG home to Leeds with him.
North Leeds has a large Jewish community and for many years its been common for lads of Jewish decent to volunteer for the IDF.

Leeds Jews originally settled in the poor areas of South Leeds, with a large number working as tailors, they moved out years ago and they were eventually replaced by muslims (including the 7/7 bombers).
 

Mr Happy

LE
Moderator
#11
polar said:
North Leeds has a large Jewish community and for many years its been common for lads of Jewish decent to volunteer for the IDF.
IIRC IDF National Service is a requirement, not a volunteer thing. It isn't that Mossad comes and picks you up if you don't but I think if you try to dodge it and then try to enter Israel a few years later you'll be immediatly whisked off down to the nearest barracks for 2 years, regardless of your obligations back home. If you are too old you get some jail time instead. I know a few lads that never did it but I am working on the guess that they don't visit their relatives in Tel Aviv that often either... If there is any one of Gods chosen people that can confirm or deny my dodgy memory please do so...
 
#12
Mr Happy said:
IIRC IDF National Service is a requirement, not a volunteer thing.
As far as I'm aware, these 'volunteers' didn't have an Israeli passport, their families had been in the UK since 1800's or earlier.
 

Mr Happy

LE
Moderator
#13
polar said:
As far as I'm aware, these 'volunteers' didn't have an Israeli passport, their families had been in the UK since 1800's or earlier.
I am pretty sure that anybody 'of the faith' can get an Israeli passport on application.
 
#14
Mr Happy said:
polar said:
As far as I'm aware, these 'volunteers' didn't have an Israeli passport, their families had been in the UK since 1800's or earlier.
I am pretty sure that anybody 'of the faith' can get an Israeli passport on application.
And the families will have been careful to maintain their dual citizenship.
 
#15
Cuddles said:
How does the Enlistment in Foreign Wars Act apply to British Jews serving in the IDF incidentally? I am surprised that there hasn't been a question asked in the House yet. I think I may have to have a word with my MP...
The Foreign Enlistment Act makes it a crime for a British subject to enlist in the army of a foreign nation that is at war with any country that the UK is at peace with.

As the Israelis are attacking the civil infrastructure in Lebanon in order to put pressure on the Lebanese government, they could reasonably be considered to be at war with Lebanon. The UK is not at war with Lebanon. As this man joined the Israeli army before the Israelis attacked Lebanon, he may not be committing an offence under the act, but any British person who did so after the fighting started certainly would. Whether they would be prosecuted for the crime is a different matter.

There is no exception in the Foreign Enlistment Act for people who hold dual nationality.

If the proposed peace keeping force included a British contingent, and if the British were attacked by the Israelis, any British citizen in the IDF would theoretically be guilty of treason, irrespective of the fact that they were also Israeli citizens. I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for them to be extradited to the UK, though.
 
#16
Chinggis said:
Cuddles said:
How does the Enlistment in Foreign Wars Act apply to British Jews serving in the IDF incidentally? I am surprised that there hasn't been a question asked in the House yet. I think I may have to have a word with my MP...
The Foreign Enlistment Act makes it a crime for a British subject to enlist in the army of a foreign nation that is at war with any country that the UK is at peace with.

As the Israelis are attacking the civil infrastructure in Lebanon in order to put pressure on the Lebanese government, they could reasonably be considered to be at war with Lebanon. The UK is not at war with Lebanon. As this man joined the Israeli army before the Israelis attacked Lebanon, he may not be committing an offence under the act, but any British person who did so after the fighting started certainly would. Whether they would be prosecuted for the crime is a different matter.

There is no exception in the Foreign Enlistment Act for people who hold dual nationality.

If the proposed peace keeping force included a British contingent, and if the British were attacked by the Israelis, any British citizen in the IDF would theoretically be guilty of treason, irrespective of the fact that they were also Israeli citizens. I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for them to be extradited to the UK, though.
Yes but Israel is not at war with the Lebannon. Hostilities are with Hezbollah who are operating from south Lebannon. This complicates matters even further.
 
#17
Has Britain ever recognised the legitimacy of the IDF? As I recall, its predecessors were denoted illegal organisations.

If Britain hasn't recognised the IDF, would that make all its members terrorists?
 
#18
Mr Happy said:
GDav said:
It is not a crime for a UK national to fight in a foreign army, unlike in some other countries.
Unless it is against us, right?
From another thread

Iolis said:
KGB_resident said:
Suppose that a Briton would be in Saddam's army. Would it be lawfull?
Hi Sergy,

In addressing this particular question, the Foreign Elistments Act 1870 makes it an offence for an British Subject to enlist in a Foreign Army.

Although that is still the position legally, the Act is regarded as almost impossible to enforce and convictions under it extremely rare since the main difficulty is in securing sufficient evidence.

Regards and best wishes
So it seems as if it really is illegal.....
 
#19
GDav said:
It is not a crime for a UK national to fight in a foreign army, unlike in some other countries.
Oh yes it can be....see above! Still I expect nothing less from an Irish Wild Goose!
 
#20
putteesinmyhands said:
Has Britain ever recognised the legitimacy of the IDF? As I recall, its predecessors were denoted illegal organisations.

If Britain hasn't recognised the IDF, would that make all its members terrorists?
Britain has recognised the legitimacy of the State and by default all it's institutions including that of it's armed forces. There is a certain amount of training co-operation between the two armed forces and some other agreements. Putte - if Britain had been helping the IDF and not recognised it and by your implication it was a terrorist organisation, does this not mean that Britain has been aiding and abetting terrorists?
 

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