Discussion in 'Military History and Militaria' started by KGB_resident, Dec 18, 2005.
The heart of the site is the forum area, including:
It is a very interesting theme for me. However I don't know much about it. Let's discuss it.
I can't say that this specific subject is something I know a great deal about, but for a general discourse I can recommend Gulag : A History by Anne Applebaum - a very well researched and written book; whilst not presented in an overly dramatic style, such is the subject matter that you should prepare yourself for laughter and tears. I've just done a Google search and it appears that The Iron Cage by Nigel Cawthorne is the definitive work on the subject of Allied prisoners in the gulag system.
Without any real knowledge it is probably likely that:
Large groups ie US/UK/CW in organized camps/marches were returned (eventually), Certainly of Aus POW(G) reported to Red Cross (no known cases where this didn't happen) very few (tens?) were subsequently missing.
Individuals - assigned to farms, escaped and took up with the the wrong partisans, happened to finish up with USSR POW's or whatever who finished up in Russian hands may have ended up in the system. With these unfortunates a couple of years later (or in 1953) they would be a bit of an embaressment and records may have been destroyed.
A similar fate would have awaited the Korean boys and the cold war aircrew prior to Powers
Nigel Cawthorne? Are his books a reliable source of information? Look at them
As for the mentioned book then at least British MoD doesn't trust the author.
Never having read any of his work, I don't have a view on how reliable his information is, however:
For full text see here.
Obviously someone in the US Senate decided he was worth listening to.
As for "look at them", I too noted (with raised eyebrow) the titles of his other works, but that's not to say that he isn't an expert in this field.
I'll have to get reading, his book 'The history of the SS cricket team' sounds fascinating!
As to POWs in USSR, I've also heard that over 20,000 US POWs were kept by the russians after the war. No idea if it's true or not, but if true it's a wonder WW3 didn't kick off straight away!
Everyone was knackered & decided to go home for some tea?
But had the allegations been accepted as truthful by the Senate? I doubt. Why he was allowed to speak in the Senate? Probably American lawmakers were impressed by this
Suppose that somebody claims (without any evidence) that 231564 Soviet POWs were tortured to death in American and British camps. What would be a cost of his 'investigations'? Zero.
No matter would he be allowed to speak in Russian parliament or not.
You're making a rather doubtful - and dismissive - assumption there Sergey; on what basis do you doubt (pro-Soviet prejudice perchance?). Cawthorne was allowed to speak before the Senate because he was called to give evidence in a Senate investigation.
But there is documentary evidence Sergey, so stop trying to discredit evidence which does not appeal to you by recourse to the 'suppose' school of history. Doesn't Putin have a habit of silencing journalists, writers, and historians, which may explain why they do not speak before the Duma?
Gallowglass, I don't believe a word you're saying.
Oh, hang on.
Please help they beat me they beat me somebody tell the British Embassy anybody please they beat me
Still, I imagaine it's all for the best though.
And what were decisions of the Senate?
You speak about 'documentary evidences' unknown to me. Are they secret? If not then how is it possible to look at them?
I met mr.Putin briefly this Summer, however I'm absolutely unaware about his habits. But one thing is obvious, he haven't much time to hear all nutters. 'Journalists, writers, and historians' have right to publish their thoughts in newspapers and magazines, in their books. Btw, there is a Russian writer - Sorokin. In one of his pseudo-historian book he described sexual act between Stalin and Khrushchev. But I doubt that the Duma would call him for hearings.
A direct quote from Cawthorne's own website (which you appear to have missed?...)
Also, see here: http://www.aiipowmia.com/testimony/bellveith.html
and here: http://www.vvnw.org/Educational_Material/pow_mia.htm
They are unknown to you because you don't seem to have been aware of their existence, and you rubbish the men who have presented the facts they took from these same archives. Just because you haven't heard of an archival source does not therefore mean that it is 'secret' and automatically suspect in your manner of thinking. Beevor is a foreigner and yet he managed to gain admission to Russian archives; I therefore imagine that you as a Russian might also be able to gain access to these resources (look at his books for what these archives are called and where they are).
Come on Sergey, the surpression of the independent media - print, radio, and television - in Russia is a fact that has been widely reported upon and investigated in the West (or are all such reports a tissue of lies?). It strikes me that Putin doesn't listen to either 'nutters' or anyone else for that matter....unless they happen to have served in the KGB with him of course.
For all the running about after facts Sergey, I ought to be charging you for my time!
And what? Where are facts, names, regiments? Can it prove anything? I don't see even a mention about British POWs in your quote.
You propose to read this
I tried to find a word 'British' and failed. Why don't you propose to read a fairy-tale about Red Cap?
You also propose to read this http://www.vvnw.org/Educational_Material/pow_mia.htm
Do you suggest that Francis Scott was a prisoner of Soviet GULAG?
My conclusion: there are no any evidences that even one British POW was held in the Soviet GULAG.
And you don't know even one name (with details: age, birthplace, regiment and so on).
Sergey, this - as you well now - has nothing to do with British POWs. If you recall, it was you who started questioning the validity of Cawthorne's appearance before the US Senate. If anyone is guilty of dragging the discussion away from the subject of British POWs, it is you.
Again, this is related to Cawthorne's Senate appearance (something you are questioning) - are you suffering from short-term memory loss? And who the hell is Red Cap (do you mean OldRedCap?)
Honestly Sergey, you really are something else. You take one line from the following paragraph...
...on the introductory home page of the Veterans of the Vietnam War, and ignore the references to Cawthorne and US POWs in Soviet hands. Brilliant. Tell me, when are you being conferred with your degree from the University of Selective Amnesia?
If memory serves Sergey, some names were mentioned to you at the beginning of this thread (I stand to be corrected). However, as with other evidence presented to you, you either rubbish it as either 'lies' or 'estimates' concocted by 'vulgar' historians, or dismiss it as insignificant. Your 'conclusion' is based on a refusal to accept any facts presented to you, and a rather dodgy interpretation of sources I have directed you to in an attempt to discredit these same sources - I might suggest that it would constitute a wonderful interrogatory or prosecuting tactic for a show trial, but it's worthless in the area of historical debate. I had considered going to the trouble of getting Cawthorne's The Iron Cage out of my university library and quoting it to you chapter and verse...but then I thought what's the point? We reached this point on another thread, and PTP pulled the plug, and quite rightly so. The fact is Sergey, you seem to have an aversion to those facts that make you uncomfortable and/or paint the USSR as anything less than the Workers' and Peasants' Paradise which its propagandists tried to portray it as being. In short, you believe what you wish. I - and others like me - are quite simply wasting our time.
Separate names with a comma.