British POWs forced to fight in the Red Army

#61
Alsacien said:
Domovoy said:
Alsacien said:
Before you try and defend the undefendable may you should read the links and absorb some of those numbers mentioned....you are in denial IMO.

To suggest an equivalent level of abuse by other forces is also naive in the extreme.

This is not a pi22ing contest - I enjoy visiting Russia and I have a great respect for the achievments of the Red Army and am well aware that they destroyed 95% of the axis fighting forces. However Stalin, the comissars, and ultimately many of the officers and the troops themselves have a lot to answer for. This is not a judgement - some of the reasons are even offered in the Guardian article.
1. I'm in no way defending the undefendable. I can compose a formidable list of atrocities committed during Stalin times and beyond.

2. "To suggest an equivalent level of abuse by other forces is also naive in the extreme." -------------------------- What is naive in the extreme is to suggest what you've suggested and to close your eyes on the "level of abuse by other forces". Just because you were not fed unbiased facts on the matter by your propaganda doesn't mean the facts do not exist. Soviets got over the effects of Soviet propaganda by facing the evils of their past, now it's your turn. Unless of course, you think you don't have "propaganda" in the West.

3. Without your acknowledgment of crimes and atrocities committed by "other forces" this kind of dialog will always be nothing more than a pi22ing contest.

As I said, history-wise we are all sitting in the glass houses.
I am aware of crimes and atrocities committed by French, American (and to a much lesser extent) and British forces - BUT - look at the numbers!! You would be counting the people involved and their victims in the hundreds not the hundreds of thousands or even millions as in the case of the soviets:

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes
and:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_war_crimes

As I said - you and your country are in denial on this issue. I think you would find that the west are a pretty open about their dirty washing now (maybe not the French) - Russia is not exactly the most open and forthcoming country when it comes to opening uncomfortable files to the public....
Sorry, you are few decades late with this accusation, tables have turned, -- now you are in denial.
Don't show me wiki, show me evidence of an extensive research done by westerners into crimes and atrocities committed by allies; research as extensive as into the crimes and atrocities committed by Soviets! Because what I can find goes along the lines: yes, we did what we shouldn't have done, sorry, but F*** it, let's talk about Russkies! No, not good enough.

And as for "Russia is not exactly the most open and forthcoming country when it comes to opening uncomfortable files..." ---------------- learn Russian and read as many uncomfortable files as you can stomach, I do. They are open. But you don't know about it, do you?
 
#63
Domovoy said:
rickshaw-major said:
Domovoy - I don't need to tell you anything about the Ukraine but for the mildly interested:

http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/pages/U/K/UkrainianInsurgentArmy.htm
An article you presented is typical of what one can read in English.

Just one question:
1. By the boldest estimates UPA killed 900 Germans (that includes Germans killed by UPA of Bulba-Borovets which was later betrayed to Germans by Bandera who became the sole leader of UPA) and hundreds of thousands of civilians of non-Ukrainian ethnicity and Ukrainians opposed to OUN/UPA. Judging by that whom UPA was fighting against?
It was civil war of sorts and a particularly nasty one. A Russian (but Ukrainian - think of the pension after having done the time) Colonel who I work with is extremely open about the whole things and describes the UPA ar "real bastards" who committed atrocities on anybody who didn't support them with a gusto that would make the Gestapo blush.
 
#64
rickshaw-major said:
Domovoy said:
rickshaw-major said:
Domovoy - I don't need to tell you anything about the Ukraine but for the mildly interested:

http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/pages/U/K/UkrainianInsurgentArmy.htm
An article you presented is typical of what one can read in English.

Just one question:
1. By the boldest estimates UPA killed 900 Germans (that includes Germans killed by UPA of Bulba-Borovets which was later betrayed to Germans by Bandera who became the sole leader of UPA) and hundreds of thousands of civilians of non-Ukrainian ethnicity and Ukrainians opposed to OUN/UPA. Judging by that whom UPA was fighting against?
It was civil war of sorts and a particularly nasty one. A Russian (but Ukrainian - think of the pension after having done the time) Colonel who I work with is extremely open about the whole things and describes the UPA ar "real bastards" who committed atrocities on anybody who didn't support them with a gusto that would make the Gestapo blush.
A bit like the chetniks then? Or indeed any Balkan/Pan-Slav/Slav/non-Slav minority group at the time??
 

Alsacien

LE
Moderator
#65
Domovoy said:
Alsacien said:
Domovoy said:
Alsacien said:
Before you try and defend the undefendable may you should read the links and absorb some of those numbers mentioned....you are in denial IMO.

To suggest an equivalent level of abuse by other forces is also naive in the extreme.

This is not a pi22ing contest - I enjoy visiting Russia and I have a great respect for the achievments of the Red Army and am well aware that they destroyed 95% of the axis fighting forces. However Stalin, the comissars, and ultimately many of the officers and the troops themselves have a lot to answer for. This is not a judgement - some of the reasons are even offered in the Guardian article.
1. I'm in no way defending the undefendable. I can compose a formidable list of atrocities committed during Stalin times and beyond.

2. "To suggest an equivalent level of abuse by other forces is also naive in the extreme." -------------------------- What is naive in the extreme is to suggest what you've suggested and to close your eyes on the "level of abuse by other forces". Just because you were not fed unbiased facts on the matter by your propaganda doesn't mean the facts do not exist. Soviets got over the effects of Soviet propaganda by facing the evils of their past, now it's your turn. Unless of course, you think you don't have "propaganda" in the West.

3. Without your acknowledgment of crimes and atrocities committed by "other forces" this kind of dialog will always be nothing more than a pi22ing contest.

As I said, history-wise we are all sitting in the glass houses.
I am aware of crimes and atrocities committed by French, American (and to a much lesser extent) and British forces - BUT - look at the numbers!! You would be counting the people involved and their victims in the hundreds not the hundreds of thousands or even millions as in the case of the soviets:

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes
and:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_war_crimes

As I said - you and your country are in denial on this issue. I think you would find that the west are a pretty open about their dirty washing now (maybe not the French) - Russia is not exactly the most open and forthcoming country when it comes to opening uncomfortable files to the public....
"show me evidence of an extensive research done by westerners into crimes and atrocities committed by allies; research as extensive as into the crimes and atrocities committed by Soviets!" OK - here are some references:

^ a b Richard Blanke, The American Historical Review, Vol. 97, No. 2. Apr., 1992, pp. 580-582. Review of: Włodzimierz Jastrzębski,Der Bromberger Blutsonntag: Legende und Wirklichkeit. and Andrzej Brożek, Niemcy zagraniczni w polityce kolonizacji pruskich prowincji wschodnich (1886-1918) JSTOR
^ Christopher R. Browning, The Origins of the Final Solution: The Evolution of Nazi Jewish Policy, University of Nebrasca Press, Google Print, p.442 (footnote 84)
^ a b c d e f g h i j Christian Raitz von Frentz, A Lesson Forgotten: Minority Protection Under the League of Nations, LIT Verlag Berlin-Hamburg-Münster, Google Print, p.252 - 254
^ Perry Biddiscombe, Alexander Perry, Werwolf!: The History of the National Socialist Guerrilla Movement, 1944-1946, University of TorontoPress, 1998, ISBN 0802008623, Google Print, p.207
^ a b The Shadow of Death: The Holocaust in Lithuania
^ Study: Soviet Prisoners-of-War (POWs), 1941-42 website of Gendercide Watch
^ Matthew White Source List and Detailed Death Tolls for the Twentieth Century Hemoclysm: Stalin
^ POWs and the laws of war: World War II legacy © 2003 Educational Broadcasting Corporation
^ Jennifer K. Elsea (Legislative Attorney American Law Division) Federation of American Scientists CRS Report for Congress Lawfulness of Interrogation Techniques under the Geneva Conventions (PDF) September 8, 2004. Page 24 first paragraph see also footnotes 93 and 87
^ Mithcham, Samuel and Friedrich von Stauffenberg The Battle of Sicily
^ The official historian of the Canadian Army, C.P. Stacey, noted in his autobiography that it was the only incident he was aware of that could be considered a "war crime" associated with Canadian soldiers in World War II. see: Stacey, C.P. A Date With History
^ a b Luke Harding German historian provokes row over war photos in The Guardian, October 21, 2003
^ Ken Burns and Lynn Novick (directors), The War, Episode 6, "The Ghost Front"
^ Albert Panebianco (ed). Dachau its liberation 57th Infantry Association, Felix L. Sparks, Secretary 15 June 1989. (backup site)
^ Richard Dominic Wiggers. "The United States and the Refusal to Feed German Civilians after World War II" p. 288
^ Nicholas Balabkins, "Germany Under Direct Controls: Economic Aspects of Industrial Disarmament 1945 - 1948", Rutgers University Press, 1964 p. 101
^ Richard Dominic Wiggers. "The United States and the Refusal to Feed German Civilians after World War II" p. 274
^ Richard Dominic Wiggers p. 279. "In postwar Germany and Japan, the U.S. Army financed the most urgent food imports by citing obligations under Article 43 of The Hague Rules of Land Warfare."
^ Remembering Rape: Divided Social Memory and the Red Army in Hungary 1944–1945, James Mark, Past & Present 188 (2005) 133-161
^ Excerpt, Chapter one The Struggle for Europe: The Turbulent History of a Divided Continent 1945-2002 - William I. Hitchcock - 2003 - ISBN 0-385-49798-9
^ A Terrible Revenge: The Ethnic Cleansing of the East European Germans, 1944-1950 - Alfred-Maurice de Zayas - 1994 - ISBN 0-312-12159-8
^ Barefoot in the Rubble - Elizabeth B. Walter - 1997 - ISBN 0-9657793-0-0
^ Antony Beevor "They raped every German female from eight to 80" in The Guardian May 1, 2002
^ a b c Norman M. Naimark. The Russians in Germany: A History of the Soviet Zone of Occupation, 1945-1949. Harvard University Press, 1995. ISBN 0-674-78405-7 pp 74-75
^ a b Roehner, Bertrand M., RELATIONS BETWEEN ALLIED FORCES AND THE POPULATIONS OF GERMANY AND AUSTRIA, Self-published, p. 23, <http://www.lpthe.jussieu.fr/~roehner/ocg.pdf>. Retrieved on 27 May 2008 , citing note 27 in Biddiscombe (2001), Dangerous liaisons: the anti-fraternization movement in the U.S. occupation zones of Germany and Austria 1945-1948, vol. 34, pp. 611-647
^ Judgement : Doenitz the Avalon Project at the Yale Law School
^ Gary E. Weir Silent Defense One Hundred Years of the American Submarine Force, U.S. Naval Historical Center, Section "Shaping an Identity". Accessed 25 April 2008. "Thus, when Admiral Thomas Hart proclaimed unrestricted submarine warfare against Japan on 8 December 1941, it came as no surprise"
^ Shimoda et al. v. The State, Tokyo District Court, 7 December 1963
^ Falk, Richard A.. "The Claimants of Hiroshima", The Nation, 1965-02-15. reprinted in (1966) "The Shimoda Case: Challenge and Response", in Richard A. Falk, Saul H. Mendlovitz eds.: The Strategy of World Order. Volume: 1. New York: World Law Fund, pp. 307-13.
^ International Review of the Red Cross no 323, p.347-363 The Law of Air Warfare (1998)
^ John Bolton The Risks and Weaknesses of the International Criminal Court from America's Perspective, (page 4) Law and Contemporary Problems January 2001, while US ambassador to the United Nations
^ Jeff Kingston, "Images of a common brutality" (Japan Times, February 24, 2002) Accessed: 26/05/2007. (Kingston is a history professor at Temple University Japan.)
^ Cited by Kingston, 2001.
^ John W. Dower, 1986, War Without Mercy: Race and Power in the Pacific War (Pantheon: New York. ISBN 0-394-75172-8), p.35.
^ John W. Dower, 1986, War Without Mercy, p.68.
^ a b John W. Dower, 1986, War Without Mercy, p.69.
^ a b Rummel 1991, p. 112
^ a b Rummel 1991, p. 113
^ Rudolph J. Rummel, 1991, China's Bloody Century: Genocide and Mass Murder Since 1900 (ISBN 0-88738-417X) Transaction Publishers), p.115.
^ Tom Mintier, "Photos document brutality in Shanghai" (CNN, September 23, 1996. Access date: August 25, 2007.
^ Ben Fenton, "American troops 'murdered Japanese PoWs'" (Daily Telegraph (UK), 06/08/2005), accessed 26/05/2007. (Adrich is a Professor of History at Nottingham University.)
^ Ben Fenton, "American troops 'murdered Japanese PoWs'" (Daily Telegraph (UK), 06/08/2005), accessed 26/05/2007
^ Niall Fergusson, "Prisoner Taking and Prisoner Killing in the Age of Total War: Towards a Political Economy of Military Defeat", War in History, 2004, 11 (2): 148–192
^ a b Niall Ferguson, "Prisoner Taking and Prisoner Killing in the Age of Total War: Towards a Political Economy of Military Defeat", War in History, 2004, 11 (2): p.150
^ Ferguson 2004, p.181
^ a b c d e Ulrich Straus, The Anguish Of Surrender: Japanese POWs of World War II (excerpts) (Seattle: University of Washington Press, 2003 ISBN 978-0-295-98336-3, p.116
^ Niall Fergusson, "Prisoner Taking and Prisoner Killing in the Age of Total War: Towards a Political Economy of Military Defeat", War in History, 2004, 11 (2): p.176.
^ James J. Weingartner “Trophies of War: U.S. Troops and the Mutilation of Japanese War Dead, 1941–1945” Pacific Historical Review (1992) p. 55
^ Niall Fergusson, "Prisoner Taking and Prisoner Killing in the Age of Total War: Towards a Political Economy of Military Defeat", War in History, 2004, 11 (2): p.182
^ Christopher Bayly & Tim Harper, 2004, Forgotten Armies: The Fall of British Asia, 1941-1945, (Allen Lane: London. ISBN 0-713-99463-0), p. 388.
'^ Xavier Guillaume, "A Heterology of American GIs during World War II". H-US-Japan (July, 2003). Access date: January 4, 2008.
^ Simon Harrison “Skull Trophies of the Pacific War: transgressive objects of remembrance” Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute (N.S) 12, 817-836 (2006) p.818
^ Simon Harrison “Skull Trophies of the Pacific War: transgressive objects of remembrance” Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute (N.S) 12, 817-836 (2006)p. 827
^ Simon Harrison “Skull Trophies of the Pacific War: transgressive objects of remembrance” Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute (N.S) 12, 817-836 (2006) p.827
^ Simon Harrison “Skull Trophies of the Pacific War: transgressive objects of remembrance” Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute (N.S) 12, 817-836 (2006) p.828
^ a b James J. Weingartner “Trophies of War: U.S. Troops and the Mutilation of Japanese War Dead, 1941 – 1945” Pacific Historical Review (1992) p.59
^ ICRC Commentaries on the Convention (III) relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War Article 5 "Under the present provision, the Convention applies to persons who "fall into the power" of the enemy. This term is also used in the opening sentence of Article 4, replacing the expression "captured" which was used in the 1929 Convention (Article 1). It indicates clearly that the treatment laid down by the Convention is applicable not only to military personnel taken prisoner in the course of fighting, but also to those who fall into the hands of the adversary following surrender or mass capitulation."
^ United States Department of State / Foreign relations of the United States : diplomatic papers, 1945. European Advisory Commission, Austria, Germany Volume III (1945) Page 1384
^ S. P. MacKenzie "The Treatment of Prisoners of War in World War II" The Journal of Modern History, Vol. 66, No. 3. (September 1994), pp. 487-520.
^ Walter Stanoski Winter, Walter Winter, Struan Robertson: Winter Time: Memoirs of a German Sinto who Survived Auschwitz. 2004. Page 139. ISBN 1902806387.
^ U.S. (and French) abuse of German PoWs, 1945-1948
^ Midnight Massacre. TIME. Retrieved on 2008-04-28.
^ a b James D. Morrow. The Institutional Features of the Prisoners of War Treaties, Center for Political Studies at The University of Michigan
^ Herbert Bix, 2000,Hirohito and the Making of Modern Japan HarperCollins. (ISBN 0-06-019314-X) p. 360
^ a b c d e f Niall Ferguson, "Prisoner Taking and Prisoner Killing in the Age of Total War: Towards a Political Economy of Military Defeat" War in History 2004 11 (2) 148–192 pg. 186 (Table 4)
^ Yuki Tanaka, 1996,Hidden Horrors (Westview Press) (ISBN 0-81-332718-0) pp. 2-3.
^ James D. Morrow The Institutional Features of the Prisoners of War Treaties, Center for Political Studies at The University of Michigan, p. 22
re you go for comparison:

"read as many uncomfortable files as you can stomach, I do." - Then you know about the thousands of documented first hand accounts from victims, the red cross and other agencies then.
 
#66
Cuddles said:
rickshaw-major said:
Domovoy said:
rickshaw-major said:
Domovoy - I don't need to tell you anything about the Ukraine but for the mildly interested:

http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/pages/U/K/UkrainianInsurgentArmy.htm
An article you presented is typical of what one can read in English.

Just one question:
1. By the boldest estimates UPA killed 900 Germans (that includes Germans killed by UPA of Bulba-Borovets which was later betrayed to Germans by Bandera who became the sole leader of UPA) and hundreds of thousands of civilians of non-Ukrainian ethnicity and Ukrainians opposed to OUN/UPA. Judging by that whom UPA was fighting against?
It was civil war of sorts and a particularly nasty one. A Russian (but Ukrainian - think of the pension after having done the time) Colonel who I work with is extremely open about the whole things and describes the UPA ar "real bastards" who committed atrocities on anybody who didn't support them with a gusto that would make the Gestapo blush.
A bit like the chetniks then? Or indeed any Balkan/Pan-Slav/Slav/non-Slav minority group at the time??
Oh indeed. Von dem Bach-Zelewski court-martialled 2 Croatian priests attached to the Croatian SS Division - for brutality! Which begs the question - WTF were the priests doing?
 
#67
Alsacien, I asked: "show me evidence of an extensive research done by westerners into crimes and atrocities committed by allies; research as extensive as into the crimes and atrocities committed by Soviets"

Now, let's see what you've produced:

Richard Blanke, The American Historical Review, Vol. 97, No. 2. Apr., 1992, pp. 580-582. Review of: Włodzimierz Jastrzębski,Der Bromberger Blutsonntag: Legende und Wirklichkeit. and Andrzej Brożek --- Germans from Abroad in the Colonization Policy of the Eastern Prussian Provinces (1886-1918) by Andrzej Brozek; etc --- not about crimes and atrocities committed by allies.

Christopher R. Browning, The Origins of the Final Solution: The Evolution of Nazi Jewish Policy -- not about crimes and atrocities committed by allies.

Christian Raitz von Frentz, A Lesson Forgotten: Minority Protection Under the League of Nations -- The Case of the German Minority in Poland -- not about crimes and atrocities committed by allies.

Perry Biddiscombe, Alexander Perry, Werwolf!: The History of the National Socialist Guerrilla Movement -- is the most complete history to date of the Nazi partisan movement --- not about crimes and atrocities committed by allies.

Antony Beevor "They raped every German female from eight to 80" in The Guardian May 1, 2002 -- not about crimes and atrocities committed by allies.

And that's off the top of your list!!! I'm not even going any further since you evidently:
1. misread my request
2. don't bother checking your own references
3. think I'm not going to look at what you are giving me
4. You are having a laugh.

Alsacien, don't insult my intelligence. :D
 

Alsacien

LE
Moderator
#68
Domovoy said:
Alsacien, I asked: "show me evidence of an extensive research done by westerners into crimes and atrocities committed by allies; research as extensive as into the crimes and atrocities committed by Soviets"

Now, let's see what you've produced:

Richard Blanke, The American Historical Review, Vol. 97, No. 2. Apr., 1992, pp. 580-582. Review of: Włodzimierz Jastrzębski,Der Bromberger Blutsonntag: Legende und Wirklichkeit. and Andrzej Brożek --- Germans from Abroad in the Colonization Policy of the Eastern Prussian Provinces (1886-1918) by Andrzej Brozek; etc --- not about crimes and atrocities committed by allies.

Christopher R. Browning, The Origins of the Final Solution: The Evolution of Nazi Jewish Policy -- not about crimes and atrocities committed by allies.

Christian Raitz von Frentz, A Lesson Forgotten: Minority Protection Under the League of Nations -- The Case of the German Minority in Poland -- not about crimes and atrocities committed by allies.

Perry Biddiscombe, Alexander Perry, Werwolf!: The History of the National Socialist Guerrilla Movement -- is the most complete history to date of the Nazi partisan movement --- not about crimes and atrocities committed by allies.

Antony Beevor "They raped every German female from eight to 80" in The Guardian May 1, 2002 -- not about crimes and atrocities committed by allies.

And that's off the top of your list!!! I'm not even going any further since you evidently:
1. misread my request
2. don't bother checking your own references
3. think I'm not going to look at what you are giving me
4. You are having a laugh.

Alsacien, don't insult my intelligence. :D
I will have to insult your intelligence a little bit - in case you forgot, Russia was classed as one of the allies :D
Therefore any reference list related to allied war crimes will include Russian offences too :D The fact that there were more offences reported against Russian troops than other allied troops means there is more reference material :D
 
#69
Or more Russian war crimes...
 
#70
Alsacien said:
Domovoy said:
Alsacien, I asked: "show me evidence of an extensive research done by westerners into crimes and atrocities committed by allies; research as extensive as into the crimes and atrocities committed by Soviets"

Now, let's see what you've produced:

Richard Blanke, The American Historical Review, Vol. 97, No. 2. Apr., 1992, pp. 580-582. Review of: Włodzimierz Jastrzębski,Der Bromberger Blutsonntag: Legende und Wirklichkeit. and Andrzej Brożek --- Germans from Abroad in the Colonization Policy of the Eastern Prussian Provinces (1886-1918) by Andrzej Brozek; etc --- not about crimes and atrocities committed by allies.

Christopher R. Browning, The Origins of the Final Solution: The Evolution of Nazi Jewish Policy -- not about crimes and atrocities committed by allies.

Christian Raitz von Frentz, A Lesson Forgotten: Minority Protection Under the League of Nations -- The Case of the German Minority in Poland -- not about crimes and atrocities committed by allies.

Perry Biddiscombe, Alexander Perry, Werwolf!: The History of the National Socialist Guerrilla Movement -- is the most complete history to date of the Nazi partisan movement --- not about crimes and atrocities committed by allies.

Antony Beevor "They raped every German female from eight to 80" in The Guardian May 1, 2002 -- not about crimes and atrocities committed by allies.

And that's off the top of your list!!! I'm not even going any further since you evidently:
1. misread my request
2. don't bother checking your own references
3. think I'm not going to look at what you are giving me
4. You are having a laugh.

Alsacien, don't insult my intelligence. :D
I will have to insult your intelligence a little bit - in case you forgot, Russia was classed as one of the allies :D
Therefore any reference list related to allied war crimes will include Russian offences too :D The fact that there were more offences reported against Russian troops than other allied troops means there is more reference material :D
:D

"The fact that there were more offences reported against Russian troops than other allied troops means there is more reference material"
I assume you have evidence of the research done into the number of reports?

I have an idea: why don't you get in touch with Richard Drayton and Robert Lilly to begin with, and see what they have to back their claims on crimes and atrocities committed by allies (we all know about Russia!). After that we can have a meaningful conversation. Until then, it's no more than a pi**ing competition. :)
 

Alsacien

LE
Moderator
#71
Here is a nice quote from Stalin in response to compliants by Yugo partisans that soviet soldiers were causing problems:

"Although the Red Army only crossed a very small part of Yugoslavia in 1944, the northeastern corner, its activities there caused great concern for the communist partisans that feared that the resulting rape and plunder by their communist allies would weaken their standing with the population. At least 121 cases of rape were documented later, 111 of which also involved murder. In addition 1,204 cases of looting with assault were documented.Stalin responded to a Yugoslav partisan leader's complaints at the Red Army's behaviour with "Can't he understand it if a soldier who has crossed thousands of kilometers through blood and fire and death has fun with a woman or takes some trifle?"."

Stalin openly endorsing rape and looting.

We know things improved a bit after the war ended, but only finally when soviet soldiers were mainly in barracks by 1947-48 did the rape "epidemic" come to an end - after tens of thousands of independantly documented rapes, subsequent suicides and murders of the civilian populace.
 
#72
Cuddles said:
Or more Russian war crimes...
Same, Cuddles, -- get in touch with Richard Drayton and Robert Lilly to begin with, and see what they have to back their claims on crimes and atrocities committed by allies, after that we can have a meaningful conversation. Until then, it's no more than a pi**ing competition. You like it? The field is yours.
 
#73
not quite sure what either Robert Drayton with his focus on British imperial and transnational relations before 1900 can add. Similarly J Robert Lilly has only one perspective to offer - that of the impact socio-psychologically of rape by American GIs in Europe between 1942-1945. If it helps with the scale, Lilly records some 14000 rapes in theatre between those periods. How does that measure up to high, medium and low estimates of Russian rapes in Eastern Europe and Germany in the same period?

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army_atrocities):
Following the Soviet capture of Berlin in 1945, one of the largest and most horrible cases of mass rape occurred. Soviet troops raped German women and girls. Estimates of the total number of rape victims range from tens of thousands to two million[34]. After the summer of 1945, Soviet soldiers caught raping were usually punished to various degrees, ranging from arrest to execution.[35] The rapes continued, however, until the winter of 1947-48, when Soviet occupation authorities finally solved the problem by confining the Soviet troops to strictly guarded posts and camps,“[36] completely separating them from the residential population of Eastern Germany.

34.^ Hanna Schissler The Miracle Years: A Cultural History of West Germany, 1949-1968 [3]
35.^ Norman M. Naimark. The Russians in Germany: A History of the Soviet Zone of Occupation, 1945-1949. Cambridge: Belknap, 1995 p. 92 ISBN 0-674-78405-7
36^ Naimark. The Russians in Germany, p. 79
P1ss away dear tovarich!
 

Alsacien

LE
Moderator
#74
Domovoy.
You cannot seriously believe that the number of war crimes attributable to the British/French/Canadian/American forces is in any way comparable in scale to that of soviet red army war crimes?

You do not seriously believe that the massive amount of documentation relating to soviet red army war crimes is a result of Russian "facing up to the past", and that the limited documentation relating to other allied armies is simply a cover up, or negative propaganda exercise against the Russians?

Did it not occur to you that the mechanisms for reporting such things in the west, such as the presence of the red cross, free press and multi-national environment would have meant many more reports had such things occured? This compared to the east where reporting such things would have meant dealing with the Russia military (the accused), local political commissars (not keen on bad news from the "enemy") - not to mention the possible involvement of such sympathetic organisations as the NKVD....?

Do we conclude that the current word on this is that is was something that every army did equally, but somehow the Russians are more honest by accepting it and the western armies simply deny it?
 
#75
Alsacien and Cuddles, I believe in God, everything else I try to find out and prove.

The difference between ex-Soviet population and people like yourselves is that we went from denial through shock of discoveries to accepting the truth of evil in our history; you, on the other hand, are on the first stage of this process and unwilling to move any further. Very brave at pointing your finger at others, but very reluctant at making your own uncomfortable discoveries.
 

Alsacien

LE
Moderator
#76
Domovoy said:
Alsacien and Cuddles, I believe in God, everything else I try to find out and prove.

The difference between ex-Soviet population and people like yourselves is that we went from denial through shock of discoveries to accepting the truth of evil in our history; you, on the other hand, are on the first stage of this process and unwilling to move any further. Very brave at pointing your finger at others, but very reluctant at making your own uncomfortable discoveries.
Or maybe we just don't have an ex-leader responsable for up to 17 million deaths to discover :?
 
#77
Alsacien said:
Domovoy said:
Alsacien and Cuddles, I believe in God, everything else I try to find out and prove.

The difference between ex-Soviet population and people like yourselves is that we went from denial through shock of discoveries to accepting the truth of evil in our history; you, on the other hand, are on the first stage of this process and unwilling to move any further. Very brave at pointing your finger at others, but very reluctant at making your own uncomfortable discoveries.
Or maybe we just don't have an ex-leader responsable for up to 17 million deaths to discover :?
Be fair Alsacien, Churchill allegedly massacred the comrade mine-workers of the people's republic of Socialist Wales...
 
#78
I don't think there is any doubt that there were incidents of ill-discipline by troops of western armies. However, it was light years short of mass 'ill-treatment'. What's more officers and NCOs, not to mention the MPs, did not condone the behaviour. The same cannot be said of Soviet officers. I guess the WW2 count-marial records aren't available but perhaps some disciplinary statisitcs are. What's more western allies and Germany mutually accepted the Geneva Convention, off course there were incidents of potential PWs being killed that were probably on the wrong side of reasonable doubt about motives, but it was not pervasive.

It's interesting that there does seem to be a modern trend to try a re-write history to paint the western allies as bad as the Germans and Russians in their behaviour in liberated/occuppied territories. It invites the question why? Perhaps it makes the guilty bastadrs further east feel better.

The Red Army was a true multi-ethnic force. There was a case of a couple of German PWs taken by UK tps in Italy or France, and nobody could understand them or knew what language they spoke. Eventually a passing Brit offr recognised the language (only in the Brit Army!) - Tibetan! They rustled up an interpreter (gob smacking that they could actually find one) and it turned out they were a couple of Tibetan herders who'd strayed over the border and been conscripted into the Red Army, taken PW, and acepted another offer.
 
#79
Petardier said:
I don't think there is any doubt that there were incidents of ill-discipline by troops of western armies. However, it was light years short of mass 'ill-treatment'. What's more officers and NCOs, not to mention the MPs, did not condone the behaviour. The same cannot be said of Soviet officers. I guess the WW2 count-marial records aren't available but perhaps some disciplinary statisitcs are. What's more western allies and Germany mutually accepted the Geneva Convention, off course there were incidents of potential PWs being killed that were probably on the wrong side of reasonable doubt about motives, but it was not pervasive.

It's interesting that there does seem to be a modern trend to try a re-write history to paint the western allies as bad as the Germans and Russians in their behaviour in liberated/occuppied territories. It invites the question why? Perhaps it makes the guilty bastadrs further east feel better.
.
Did it ever occur to you that what you were fed all along: "no doubt that there were incidents of ill-discipline by troops of western armies. However, it was light years short of mass 'ill-treatment' by Soviets" --------- was nothing more than a cold war propaganda and now, slo-o-owly, the time is coming for an open balanced research into the crimes committed on all sides, that includes western armies? Your view on it is so blinkered that your mind refuses to accept even a possibility of a comparison. That was how former Soviet citizens felt some 20 years ago. We accepted the responsibility. Now it's your turn.
If you want to discuss atrocities of the WW2, be prepared for an informed discussion, otherwise you sound like a bunch of early teens that discovered how babies are made yet refuse to accept that their own parents had to have sex to produce them.
 

Alsacien

LE
Moderator
#80
Domovoy said:
Petardier said:
I don't think there is any doubt that there were incidents of ill-discipline by troops of western armies. However, it was light years short of mass 'ill-treatment'. What's more officers and NCOs, not to mention the MPs, did not condone the behaviour. The same cannot be said of Soviet officers. I guess the WW2 count-marial records aren't available but perhaps some disciplinary statisitcs are. What's more western allies and Germany mutually accepted the Geneva Convention, off course there were incidents of potential PWs being killed that were probably on the wrong side of reasonable doubt about motives, but it was not pervasive.

It's interesting that there does seem to be a modern trend to try a re-write history to paint the western allies as bad as the Germans and Russians in their behaviour in liberated/occuppied territories. It invites the question why? Perhaps it makes the guilty bastadrs further east feel better.
.
Did it ever occur to you that what you were fed all along: "no doubt that there were incidents of ill-discipline by troops of western armies. However, it was light years short of mass 'ill-treatment' by Soviets" --------- was nothing more than a cold war propaganda and now, slo-o-owly, the time is coming for an open balanced research into the crimes committed on all sides, that includes western armies? Your view on it is so blinkered that your mind refuses to accept even a possibility of a comparison. That was how former Soviet citizens felt some 20 years ago. We accepted the responsibility. Now it's your turn.
If you want to discuss atrocities of the WW2, be prepared for an informed discussion, otherwise you sound like a bunch of early teens that discovered how babies are made yet refuse to accept that their own parents had to have sex to produce them.
There is no evidence to support war crimes committed by western armies being anything more than a fraction of those committed by the soviet red army.
Many of these victims are still alive now - why do we not have compensation claims and litigation everywhere (as is the case for most other victims groups)? Maybe it simply did not happen on such a large scale.

As I said before, you are in denial, and if you think you can reduce the red armies responsibility by accusing other armies of equivalent crimes you are also delusional.
 

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