British officers?

#2
No. Gurkhas can get commissioned in two ways:

1. Through the ranks to become a QGO.
2. Through RMAS having been selected from the RGR.

In addition technically qualified Warrant Officers (YofS, FofS in QG SIGNALS) have been able to apply for UKTAP commissions in their relevant trade roster.

RGR and the Corps Units do have British Officers as well though too.
 
#3
I can only speak for RGR, not for the Corps units (and this is only due to reading/awareness, I am not commissioned into the Bde of Gurkhas).

Of the three rifle companies in the Batallion, three of the platoon commanders (2Lt/Lt) are British - ie went to Sandhurst, then Brecon, then Nepal (language training) before joining the batallion. The other six (pl cmd) within the rifle companies are QGO. These are essentially Late Entry officers - they commission from CSgt/WO2/WO1.

The company 2i/c, mortar/machine gun/anti tank commanders are typically QGO. Company commanders are British, as are the Int Officer, Ops Officer, RSO, Adjutant, Batallion 2i/c.

The senior gurkha officer is the Gurkha Major. As far as I can work out he is the focal point for all Gurkha issues, and on operations acts the role of the Padre (since the Gurkha Pundit is a civilian and does not go on operations).

I apologise for the diabolical English/grammar etc - I am shattered.

Hope this has been of some use
 
#4
I was under the impression that all Gurkhas above Sargeant are eligible to be promotted (awarded) to Queens Gurkha Officer, unlike British Senior Ranks & Warrant Officers who take the DE/LE route. The only Sandhurst Trained Officers being British Officers selected to serve in the Brigade of Gurkhas.

http://www.army.mod.uk/linked_files/apc/ocd/Chapter 42.pdf

QUEEN'S GURKHA OFFICERS
42.101. Introduction. Due to their unique status, commissions and employment, the
career structure and management, and the education and training of Queen’s Gurkha
Officers (QGO) are quite different to both DE and LE officers. QGOs do however fill both
DE and LE posts and therefore the principles which underpinned ROCC and its subsequent
recommendations have considerable bearing on the QGO cadre.

42.102. Approximately 15 Queen’s Gurkha Officer (QGO) commissions are awarded
annually with the Royal Gurkha Rifles (RGR) and the 3 Corps Units; the Queens Gurkha
Engineers (QGE), the Queens Gurkha Signals (QG Signals) and the Queens Own Gurkha
Logistic Regiment (QOGLR). Officers are also commissioned from the Centrally Employed
Group (CEG) that are RGR cap badged and consists of Clerks and the Brigade of Gurkhas
Band. A few QGOs are selected for conversion to Short Service Commission (Gurkha)
SSC(G) and are employed as LEs on enhanced Terms and Conditions of Service.
 
#5
Hmmm didn't 3RGR (before disbandment) have a Gurkha RMAS graduate as CO? I know of at least one Gurkha officer (non British), who has made it to Lt Col, this being the previously mentioned former CO 3RGR.

Am not sure by which route he made it to Lt Col though.
 

RP578

LE
Book Reviewer
#6
There used to a type of officer called GCO (Gurkha Commissioned Officer) who held a Crown commission having previously served in the ranks. This was a direct equivalent to a British LE officer and I believe that there is no distinction between the two.

Used to be the case too, that Gurkha Majors could became Hon. Captains (GCO) on retirement.
 
#7
Mike_2817 said:
The only Sandhurst Trained Officers being British Officers selected to serve in the Brigade of Gurkhas.
No this is incorrect. Brigade of Gurkhas Standing Instructions do allow for selected candidates from the ranks to be selected to go through RMAS. Its a long drawn out procedure and can take up to 5 years to complete, but it has been done and is still available for those that are good enough to try.

See here

Value of a Gurkha Thread See page 5.
 
#8
RP578 said:
There used to a type of officer called GCO (Gurkha Commissioned Officer) who held a Crown commission having previously served in the ranks. This was a direct equivalent to a British LE officer and I believe that there is no distinction between the two.

Used to be the case too, that Gurkha Majors could became Hon. Captains (GCO) on retirement.
The following site has 3 classes of Gurkha Officer:

http://www.army.mod.uk/servingsoldier/termsofserv/tosoffrs/ss_tos_offrs_w.html

Gurkha. Those on Gurkha Terms of Service:

Queen’s Gurkha Officer (QGO)
Gurkha Commissioned Officer (GCO)
and Short Service Commission (Gurkha).

So I stand corrected that all Gurkha Officers are QGO's
 
#9
Mike_2817 said:
RP578 said:
There used to a type of officer called GCO (Gurkha Commissioned Officer) who held a Crown commission having previously served in the ranks. This was a direct equivalent to a British LE officer and I believe that there is no distinction between the two.

Used to be the case too, that Gurkha Majors could became Hon. Captains (GCO) on retirement.
The following site has 3 classes of Gurkha Officer:

http://www.army.mod.uk/servingsoldier/termsofserv/tosoffrs/ss_tos_offrs_w.html

Gurkha. Those on Gurkha Terms of Service:

Queen’s Gurkha Officer (QGO)
Gurkha Commissioned Officer (GCO)
and Short Service Commission (Gurkha).

So I stand corrected that all Gurkha Officers are QGO's
Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that the Queens Gurkha Officers rank below a Second Lieutenant but above a WO1. During British rule, these officers were known as Viceroy's Commissioned Officers (VCOs).

The Indian Armed Forces have the same ranks, known as Junior Commissioned Officers (JCOs) which have their own separate messes in the army. Like Queens Gurkha Officers, JCOs can also receive honorary commissions.

(From Wikipedia) the JCO ranks in the Indian Army (from highest to lowest) are:

Subedar-Major (infantry and other arms)/Risaldar-Major (cavalry and armour)
Subedar/Risaldar
Naib Subedar/Naib Risaldar

The JCO (or Chief Petty Officer) ranks in the Indian Navy are:

Master Chief Petty Officer Class 1
Master Chief Petty Officer Class 2
Chief Petty Officer

The JCO (or Warranted) ranks in the Indian Air Force are:

Master Warrant Officer
Warrant Officer
Junior Warrant Officer
 
#10
ibilola said:
Mike_2817 said:
RP578 said:
There used to a type of officer called GCO (Gurkha Commissioned Officer) who held a Crown commission having previously served in the ranks. This was a direct equivalent to a British LE officer and I believe that there is no distinction between the two.

Used to be the case too, that Gurkha Majors could became Hon. Captains (GCO) on retirement.
The following site has 3 classes of Gurkha Officer:

http://www.army.mod.uk/servingsoldier/termsofserv/tosoffrs/ss_tos_offrs_w.html

Gurkha. Those on Gurkha Terms of Service:

Queen’s Gurkha Officer (QGO)
Gurkha Commissioned Officer (GCO)
and Short Service Commission (Gurkha).

So I stand corrected that all Gurkha Officers are QGO's
Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that the Queens Gurkha Officers rank below a Second Lieutenant but above a WO1. During British rule, these officers were known as Viceroy's Commissioned Officers (VCOs).

The Indian Armed Forces have the same ranks, known as Junior Commissioned Officers (JCOs) which have their own separate messes in the army. Like Queens Gurkha Officers, JCOs can also receive honorary commissions.

(From Wikipedia) the JCO ranks in the Indian Army (from highest to lowest) are:

Subedar-Major (infantry and other arms)/Risaldar-Major (cavalry and armour)
Subedar/Risaldar
Naib Subedar/Naib Risaldar

The JCO (or Chief Petty Officer) ranks in the Indian Navy are:

Master Chief Petty Officer Class 1
Master Chief Petty Officer Class 2
Chief Petty Officer

The JCO (or Warranted) ranks in the Indian Air Force are:

Master Warrant Officer
Warrant Officer
Junior Warrant Officer
My bold

Correct, but it is the very stupid and not long surviving young or attached british officer who treats a Lt (QGO), a Capt(QGO) and the Gurkha Major as his rank inferiors.
 
#11
ibilola said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that the Queens Gurkha Officers rank below a Second Lieutenant but above a WO1.
Can someone explain why British enlisted personnel are given a full commission when they are Commissioned, whereas Gurkhas receive a lesser commission as Queens Gurkha Officers. Is it because they are less able than British soldiers or is it due to their race?
 
#12
Gurkhas are given a commission that is relevant to their current terms and conditions of service. It is no less than a British LE Commission, but because of the intricacies of service and to ensure promotion is available to all that aspire to commission, it is slightly different in terms of time served and the ability to promote beyond major. This is currently being reviewed as part of the wider GTACOS review.

The less than 2Lt is merely a historical thing and is no longer relevant to modern service, a Lt QGO is as senior as a Lt and has the same responsibilites and does the same duties.
 
#13
John_Gurkha said:
Gurkhas are given a commission that is relevant to their current terms and conditions of service. It is no less than a British LE Commission, but because of the intricacies of service and to ensure promotion is available to all that aspire to commission, it is slightly different in terms of time served and the ability to promote beyond major. This is currently being reviewed as part of the wider GTACOS review.

The less than 2Lt is merely a historical thing and is no longer relevant to modern service, a Lt QGO is as senior as a Lt and has the same responsibilites and does the same duties.
But currently still junior to a British Officer or a GCO under Queens Regulations???
 
#14
ibilola said:
John_Gurkha said:
Gurkhas are given a commission that is relevant to their current terms and conditions of service. It is no less than a British LE Commission, but because of the intricacies of service and to ensure promotion is available to all that aspire to commission, it is slightly different in terms of time served and the ability to promote beyond major. This is currently being reviewed as part of the wider GTACOS review.

The less than 2Lt is merely a historical thing and is no longer relevant to modern service, a Lt QGO is as senior as a Lt and has the same responsibilites and does the same duties.
But currently still junior to a British Officer or a GCO under Queens Regulations???
What in the same way that Late Entry Officers are junior to Direct Entry or that Navy Officers are Senior to Army Officers or that I went up the steps before the bloke behind me or that my Regimental number is earlier than yours?

I shall look in QRs and see what it says, but if you're trying to insinuate that a QGO is some sort of lesser mortal, perhaps you might want to take yourself outside and give yourself a shake.
 
#15
To my knowledge a QGO Lt is treated the same, if not better than a DE Lt, he is the same as a LE officer as far as most are concerned, and only a fool sees him as anything other.

There are no, and have never been any, Gurkha YofS as far as I am aware, so there are no Traffic Officer Gurkhas either.
 
#16
John_Gurkha said:
I shall look in QRs and see what it says, but if you're trying to insinuate that a QGO is some sort of lesser mortal, perhaps you might want to take yourself outside and give yourself a shake.
I'm not insinuating anything of the sort. The question is why does the British Army still need to make the distinction.
 
#17
John_Gurkha said:
ibilola said:
John_Gurkha said:
Gurkhas are given a commission that is relevant to their current terms and conditions of service. It is no less than a British LE Commission, but because of the intricacies of service and to ensure promotion is available to all that aspire to commission, it is slightly different in terms of time served and the ability to promote beyond major. This is currently being reviewed as part of the wider GTACOS review.

The less than 2Lt is merely a historical thing and is no longer relevant to modern service, a Lt QGO is as senior as a Lt and has the same responsibilites and does the same duties.
But currently still junior to a British Officer or a GCO under Queens Regulations???
What in the same way that Late Entry Officers are junior to Direct Entry or that Navy Officers are Senior to Army Officers or that I went up the steps before the bloke behind me or that my Regimental number is earlier than yours?

I shall look in QRs and see what it says, but if you're trying to insinuate that a QGO is some sort of lesser mortal, perhaps you might want to take yourself outside and give yourself a shake.
Apologies, I asked a similar question on ARRSE 9 months ago!

This may be of interest.

www.army.mod.uk/linked...fo_001.doc


RANK STRUCTURE

14. Some of the ranks and titles in use in British Gurkhas Nepal can be confusing to people who have not previously served with Gurkhas. The Brigade of Gurkhas retains some of the rank structure and commissions of the Indian Army. Each of the terms is explained below:

a. British Officer (BO). British Officers, who carry out the main command duties of Brigade units are the same as their fellow officers in the rest of the British Army.

b. Sandhurst Commissioned Gurkha Officers. Although not an official term, "Sandhurst Commissioned Gurkha Officers" is used to describe those officers of the Brigade who have attended Sandhurst. They are equal in every respect to other officers of the British Army and will have been commissioned as Second Lieutenants.

c. Queen's Gurkha Officer (QGO). Queen's Gurkha Officers fill command and specialist appointments at Regimental Duty. They have all progressed through the ranks and are entitled to the same respect and compliments as British Officers with whom they share equal status and seniority according to rank. The senior rank is Major (QGO) and in major units the senior Queen's Gurkha Officer is referred to as the Gurkha Major (GM). He is the commander's right hand man and adviser on Gurkha religious and cultural matters. There is no equivalent to these ranks in the remainder of the army and they stem from the old Viceroy's commission of the Indian Army. Queen's Gurkha Officers sometimes have their own Mess and referred to by all ranks as "Saheb".

d. Short Service Commission Late Entry (Gurkha) (SSC LE (G)). SSC LE (G) Officers are Queen’s Gurkha Officers who have been selected, due to special merit, for further promotion and a different commission. They have the same entitlement as British Officers and are addressed in the same manner. They live in the British Officers’ Mess or British Married Quarters as appropriate. They can be compared to Late Entry Commissioned officers and frequently carry out similar tasks. There only ever 5 SSC LE (G) officers in the Brigade at any one time.
 
#18
Having recently posted from QGS I can tell you that QGO are usually selected from WO2. There is currently at least 1 QGS FofS that I know of and served with that commisoned to Lt. There is a selection board annually and they still have to jump through the same hoops (ish) that we do when we reach the dizzy heights! Once selected they load onto the Troopies cse at Blandford and then Bob is your obvious...
Brit officers at troop comd level are beginning to be thinned out under Gurkha TACOS as and when vetting comes in for the QGS blokes.
All in all - really enjoyed the tour and was well worth it - shame it took close on 16 years to be posted there myself!!

Jai QGS
 
#19
ibilola said:
John_Gurkha said:
I shall look in QRs and see what it says, but if you're trying to insinuate that a QGO is some sort of lesser mortal, perhaps you might want to take yourself outside and give yourself a shake.
I'm not insinuating anything of the sort. The question is why does the British Army still need to make the distinction.
Quite simply because Gurkha Terms and Conditions of Service are different to UKTAP TACOS. This is probably one of the many anomalies that are being addressed by the Gurkha TACOS review. In working terms there is no distinction.
 
#20
82C_RTG said:
Brit officers at troop comd level are beginning to be thinned out under Gurkha TACOS as and when vetting comes in for the QGS blokes.
This is simply not true. There will always be a place in QG SIGNALS for UKTAP Tp Comds. If it was only vetting that was the issue, QOGLR, QGE and the RGR would have binned UKTAP Tp Comds years ago wouldn't they? In real terms the mix of youth and experience is a good blend to have in the Comd team of a Squadron.
 

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