British Muzzleloaders' new video series - history of the No 4, Mk I* Lee Enfield

38481920_687460498303448_7255502155941937152_o.jpg


It's happened! Less than six months an you're in full kit. No excuses about looking the part of only just for the photos.....you have spiraled down that slippery path o_O

Well done mate :dance:
 
It's happened! Less than six months an you're in full kit. No excuses about looking the part of only just for the photos.....you have spiraled down that slippery path o_O

Well done mate :dance:

Cadet Boots though :p

And black French knickers instead of Drawers, Cellular :p
 
But seriously, I couldn't turn up on Rob's patch in jeans and a T-shirt...
 
British Muzzleloaders (Rob) has begun what will doubtless be a comprehensive history of the No 4:...

Including the use of the safety catch at about 2.20, something that is considered an optional extra on another thread,
 
You can tell him that the "MkII" on the MkIII sight is not incorrectly stamped - because it refers to the sight leaf and not the complete sight assembly. Ergo, the MkI sight leaf is on the Mk1 sight, but the MkII sight leaf is on the MkIII sight, because the MkII sight was the 300/600 flip sight.

I'm sure that you knew that....

p.s. as a proud Canadian, I'm a bit surprised that he didn't mention that the first large-scale use of the No4 was actually in August 1942 - Dieppe.

p.p.s as a proud Canadian he might be a bit disappointed to hear that the only Canadian part of his own rifle is the receiver; the rest is a mish-mash of other British parts added during or since its last service life in India.
A bit niche all this but I have just watched newsreel of the Vaasgo raid (Dec '41) and seen a No. 4 with spike bayonet. Early model on limited troop trials?
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot_20210301-204330.png
    Screenshot_20210301-204330.png
    352 KB · Views: 14

4(T)

LE
A bit niche all this but I have just watched newsreel of the Vaasgo raid (Dec '41) and seen a No. 4 with spike bayonet. Early model on limited troop trials?

Well spotted.

The No4 was in production from about June 1941, so it looks like this unit was about the first to get the regular service rifles.

AFAIK the No1 MkVI and No4 Mk1 Trials rifles had all been withdrawn to Enfield before the outbreak of war, and were not in regular service, apart from those converted to 4(T).
 
Well spotted.

The No4 was in production from about June 1941, so it looks like this unit was about the first to get the regular service rifles.

AFAIK the No1 MkVI and No4 Mk1 Trials rifles had all been withdrawn to Enfield before the outbreak of war, and were not in regular service, apart from those converted to 4(T).
Here's some of them in the hands of Scots Guards ski troops in Chamonix during the winter of 39-40

scots guards chamonix zoomed in.png
troops at chamonix scots guards.png
 

4(T)

LE
Here's some of them in the hands of Scots Guards ski troops in Chamonix during the winter of 39-40

View attachment 553758View attachment 553757


Fascinating almost forgotten story.


There is another decent photo which, when enlarged, might just indicate that the No4s were Trials patterns.

5th ski btn Scots Gds No4 v lge.jpg



Just visible in the photo is a black blob that is in the correct position for a cut-off:

5th ski btn Scots Gds No4 bolt.jpg



There is also a tantalising shadow of the foresight protector, which is just a couple of pixels short of distinguishing whether its a straight or wavy type:


5th ski btn Scots Gds No4 forsight.jpg
 
By definition they're either No.1 Mk.VI or trials No.4 Mk.1's since the photos predate any normal No.4 production. Would indeed be fascinating to see which they are, as well as the details, but we've only got the photos we've got...

BTW I've got a project (which is going to take me ages due to dayjob work pressure sapping my mental energy for it) of tracing the Small Arms Committee minutes through the development and to the end of the No.4 Mk.1 trials. Thus far, it's real man-in-shed-who-happens-to-have-a-state-arsenal-at-his-disposal-and-can-do-a-20k-trial-run-of-SMLE-Mk.V's. Literally the spark in the tinder is a note of "err, you know that aperture sight SMLE experiment thingy we did pre-great-war, well we've got some budget so do you want to revisit that?", then the progression from SMLE Mk.V to the No.1 Mk.VI is kinda organic, "err, what if we did this and tried that" and what comes out at the end is the No.4... Which is kinda cool, and completely glossed over by Skennerton.
 

4(T)

LE
By definition they're either No.1 Mk.VI or trials No.4 Mk.1's since the photos predate any normal No.4 production. Would indeed be fascinating to see which they are, as well as the details, but we've only got the photos we've got...

BTW I've got a project (which is going to take me ages due to dayjob work pressure sapping my mental energy for it) of tracing the Small Arms Committee minutes through the development and to the end of the No.4 Mk.1 trials. Thus far, it's real man-in-shed-who-happens-to-have-a-state-arsenal-at-his-disposal-and-can-do-a-20k-trial-run-of-SMLE-Mk.V's. Literally the spark in the tinder is a note of "err, you know that aperture sight SMLE experiment thingy we did pre-great-war, well we've got some budget so do you want to revisit that?", then the progression from SMLE Mk.V to the No.1 Mk.VI is kinda organic, "err, what if we did this and tried that" and what comes out at the end is the No.4... Which is kinda cool, and completely glossed over by Skennerton.


According to Laidler, there is quite an untapped archive of No1 MkV development data at Warminster. Presumably much of this would be the troop trials reports.

I often wondered whether the development of the No4 was an official and directed WD requirement, or if it just happened to be the outcome of workbench tinkering projects by the men in brown coats. After all, everyone was still happy with the No1, and its supposed difficulty of production was rather disproved by events in WW1. They could have just cut the 07 bayonets down to India Pattern, and focussed on trying to come up with a self-loader of some sort.
 
According to Laidler, there is quite an untapped archive of No1 MkV development data at Warminster. Presumably much of this would be the troop trials reports.

I often wondered whether the development of the No4 was an official and directed WD requirement, or if it just happened to be the outcome of workbench tinkering projects by the men in brown coats. After all, everyone was still happy with the No1, and its supposed difficulty of production was rather disproved by events in WW1. They could have just cut the 07 bayonets down to India Pattern, and focussed on trying to come up with a self-loader of some sort.

It's clear from the SAC minutes that it was basically tinkering at the end of the SMLE Mk.V trials, which had been shelved since it was uneconomic to convert Mk.III's to that standard (which was actually the plan), resulting in a "huh, this is rather good, this is what we'll make in case of war in Europe".
 
Top