British men captured by Moscow's forces appear on state TV and ask to be exchanged for pro-Russian oligarch...

[smartascarrots]

Of course you haven't mentioned the insurgents as they're rather inconvently quite violent only rose up when Russia took Crimea

I've mentioned them frequently - in the contexts of the heavily investigated crimes they committed and the curiously uninvestigated crimes that were committed against them.

Did the Ukrainian government pinky promise not to do that it again and to bring the perpetrators to justice just the very moment it was convenient? Is that why they and only they are getting.the free pass?

If you'd suggested even in 2020 letting the Bosnian Serbs investigate their own war criminals, you'd have been laughed at. Suggesting it while the war was still going on would have got you sectioned under the Mental Health Act.

 

[Graculus]

I've mentioned them frequently - in the contexts of the heavily investigated crimes they committed and the curiously uninvestigated crimes that were committed against them.

ORly - you mention lots but it's just assertion. Investigated by who? Considering that independent reporters aren't allowed in Donbass it should make good reading.

Did the Ukrainian government pinky promise not to do that it again and to bring the perpetrators to justice just the very moment it was convenient? Is that why they and only they are getting.the free pass?

If you'd suggested even in 2020 letting the Bosnian Serbs investigate their own war criminals, you'd have been laughed at. Suggesting it while the war was still going on would have got you sectioned under the Mental Health Act.

Still no links then?

No shocks at all....

It's a wee bit like your fixation with Azov whilst simultaneously apparently unaware of Putin's funding RW and XRW throughout Europe or even Russia's home grown XRW who were involved in kicking all of this off.

Just imagine...one day you're a far right member of the Russian army and next day you're a Donbass separatist....life's a gas eh? Do you think Igor Girkin made it all up?

https://www.ifri.org/sites/default/files/atoms/files/rnv95_uk_likhachev_far-right_radicals_final.pdf

 

[smartascarrots]

Investigated by who?

I have, repeatedly, linked to the Human Rights Watch report. The OSCE has been another source of reports on the use of area weapons in civilian areas without any obvious military necessity. Lalalaicanthearyou is your problem, not mine.

Look, I get it. You're so heavily invested in Ukraine being the Good Guys that you can't stand any suggestion otherwise. Some of them aren't, though. That's been a contributory factor in why the separatists were able to maintain internal support for the war despite everything else.

I'm not asking for anything other than that Ukraine's individual transgressions and transgressors be subject to the standards the western world normally apply to these situations and not simply But Russia'd away.

 

[Graculus]

I have, repeatedly, linked to the Human Rights Watch report. The OSCE has been another source of reports on the use of area weapons in civilian areas without any obvious military necessity. Lalalaicanthearyou is your problem, not mine.

No links then, lots of assertion. As I said, go through the rest of the reports to get a better picture.

Look, I get it. You're so heavily invested in Ukraine being the Good Guys that you can't stand any suggestion otherwise. Some of them aren't, though. That's been a contributory factor in why the separatists were able to maintain internal support for the war despite everything else.

Pish...unadulterated pish. You didn't bother reading that last link did you? You've given no evidence to back up your assertions.

Girkin bragged that they kicked it off but for some reason it appears to have flown over your head

I'm not asking for anything other than that Ukraine's individual transgressions and transgressors be subject to the standards the western world normally apply to these situations and not simply But Russia'd away.

No, you're actually twisting the reality. I don't think Ukraine's perfect but as posted, it was on the way to becoming a functioning democracy.

There's no "But Russia..." needed, its "Russia can't abide democracy so here we are..."

 

[smartascarrots]

No links then, lots of assertion.

Lots of links already provided, you're just not prepared to use the search function for them. If you can't be arsed looking for them, I can't be arsed rehashing the same old work for the sake of the determinedly ignorant.

Girkin bragged that they kicked it off but for some reason it appears to have flown over your head

Because he was talking of the full-scale fighting, he wasn't talking about the reasons Donbass decided to secede.

If nothing else, it flies against all historic precedent for a contented population to decide they didn't want to stay part of the nation just for a lark. To stay in arms against it for 8 years for even though they were perfectly happy before? Don't talk shite.

You want to find any and all excuse to absolve Kyiv of responsibility for lighting the spark just because Russia took the opportunity to chuck a Jerry can of petrol on it.

I don't think Ukraine's perfect but as posted, it was on the way to becoming a functioning democracy.

But then it decided to take the anti-democratic way out by ousting a popularly elected president. That's OK, though, because the security forces shot at unarmed crowds so democracy works against the popular vote. It's not OK for Donbass to overthrow Kyiv's rule locally even though security forces shot at unarmed crowds there because democracy, obviously.

What a strange world you live in where actions and their effects don't determine who's a baddie or not.

 

[CutLunchCommando]

@smartascarrots

So they are both equally bad?

 

[smartascarrots]

@smartascarrots

So they are both equally bad?

No, Russia are much worse on the matter of scale.

A smaller scale of human rights abuses doesn't mean they're not human rights abuses though. We've sanctioned countries for similar.

 

[CutLunchCommando]

No, Russia are much worse on the matter of scale.

A smaller scale of human rights abuses doesn't mean they're not human rights abuses though. We've sanctioned countries for similar.

So qualitatively equally bad for offences then? Are you restricting yourself to abuses in Ukraine or is it any abuse by either side anywhere?

 

[smartascarrots]

So qualitatively equally bad for offences then?

I can't see how 'mortaring marketplaces' moves around on the badness index any depending on who does ut. I'd be deeply suspicious of anyone who could and certainly wouldn't leave my children with them unsupervised.

Are you restricting yourself to abuses in Ukraine or is it any abuse by either side anywhere?

By anyone anywhere. It's bad, not situationally bad.

That's how you can tell who the bad guys are - they're the ones who do bad stuff.

 

[LEGZ30]

Lots of links already provided, you're just not prepared to use the search function for them. If you can't be arsed looking for them, I can't be arsed rehashing the same old work for the sake of the determinedly ignorant.


Because he was talking of the full-scale fighting, he wasn't talking about the reasons Donbass decided to secede.

If nothing else, it flies against all historic precedent for a contented population to decide they didn't want to stay part of the nation just for a lark. To stay in arms against it for 8 years for even though they were perfectly happy before? Don't talk shite.

After Crimea was occupied everyone and their dog had a go at running opinion polls in the Donbass to find out what the public there actually wanted. I don't remember a single one that showed a majority wanting to leave Ukraine.

At least one asked if people felt victimised by the Ukrainian Govt for being Russian speakers. The number that said they did was tiny.

You want to find any and all excuse to absolve Kyiv of responsibility for lighting the spark just because Russia took the opportunity to chuck a Jerry can of petrol on it.


But then it decided to take the anti-democratic way out by ousting a popularly elected president. That's OK, though, because the security forces shot at unarmed crowds so democracy works against the popular vote. It's not OK for Donbass to overthrow Kyiv's rule locally even though security forces shot at unarmed crowds there because democracy, obviously.

What a strange world you live in where actions and their effects don't determine who's a baddie or not.

When/where do you believe the bit in bold happened?

 

[CutLunchCommando]

I can't see how 'mortaring marketplaces' moves around on the badness index any depending on who does ut. I'd be deeply suspicious of anyone who could and certainly wouldn't leave my children with them unsupervised.

Just to be clear I'm trying to satisfy myself that I understand your position. The concept of seperating quality from quantity seems to be yours.

By anyone anywhere. It's bad, not situationally bad.

That's how you can tell who the bad guys are - they're the ones who do bad stuff.

Yes. So is Ru abuse of its own population featuring in your summation or is it excluded and only Ru actions in UKr count?

 

[smartascarrots]

When/where do you believe the bit in bold happened?

I know it happened because a) I remember it being reported at the time along with several other indiscriminate acts of violence by Ukrainian forces against separatist civilians and b) because the HRW investigation is still available online and confirms it.

About two hours later, more Ukrainian forces, apparently on their way to the police headquarters, fired at what appeared to be a crowd of unarmed people near the town theater, about 500 meters from the police building.

Through visits to four hospitals and a morgue, I was able to confirm that more than 40 people were seriously wounded and at least seven killed.

 

[LEGZ30]

I know it happened because a) I remember it being reported at the time along with several other indiscriminate acts of violence by Ukrainian forces against separatist civilians and b) because the HRW investigation is still available online and confirms it.

This is why I laugh every time you accuse other people of being selective;

I recorded the gender and ages of the patients, and spoke to the doctors about their injuries. All of the wounded were male, from 30 to 50 years old; six of the wounded and at least one of those killed were from the security forces.

It is very hard to say at this point whether the Ukrainian government forces at the police station used excessive force.

My preliminary findings suggest that Ukrainian units might indeed have used excessive force near the drama theater, which resulted in deaths and injuries of some unarmed people. Videos show that the crowd was large but unarmed, and the low numbers of wounded Ukrainian government forces suggests the same. The wounded said they were marching back home from the demonstration. Two of them, when pressed, said the Ukrainian forces may have opened fire in order provide cover for soldiers who were approaching the police building. Anti-Kiev crowds had swarmed government troops earlier that day, so that might have been a factor they were considering.

 

[smartascarrots]

This is why I laugh every time you accuse other people of being selective;

You laugh because an impartial international organisation recorded the Ukrainian government firing on an unarmed crowd, killing innocent civilians?

Colour me surprised.

 

[LEGZ30]

You laugh because an impartial international organisation recorded the Ukrainian government firing on an unarmed crowd, killing innocent civilians?

Colour me surprised.

Might have, Mr selective, might have.

 

[Graculus]

Lots of links already provided, you're just not prepared to use the search function for them. If you can't be arsed looking for them, I can't be arsed rehashing the same old work for the sake of the determinedly ignorant.

I've seen a link from you and none in response to anything I said.

Because he was talking of the full-scale fighting, he wasn't talking about the reasons Donbass decided to secede.

FFS - he kicked it off, they'd been destabilizing the area for a full decade.

If nothing else, it flies against all historic precedent for a contented population to decide they didn't want to stay part of the nation just for a lark. To stay in arms against it for 8 years for even though they were perfectly happy before?

I never said that they were perfectly happy so away with your bollocks. The nationalist population in NI has unhappy members, they don't have a foreign government to supply them with arms and SF personnel to kick off though.

Don't talk shite.

After you sensei

You want to find any and all excuse to absolve Kyiv of responsibility for lighting the spark just because Russia took the opportunity to chuck a Jerry can of petrol on it.

Pish. I'm still waiting for links showing they lit that spark. Assertion, assertion, assertion - all absent of evidence.

But then it decided to take the anti-democratic way out by ousting a popularly elected president. That's OK, though, because the security forces shot at unarmed crowds so democracy works against the popular vote.

Do you think it's OK for the governments to murder their citizens and the citizens should jolly well accept that they deserve it?

It's not OK for Donbass to overthrow Kyiv's rule locally even though security forces shot at unarmed crowds there because democracy, obviously.

It's not OK for Russia to invade its neighbour and deny its forces are there for years.

What a strange world you live in where actions and their effects don't determine who's a baddie or not.

You support authoritarian states, I get it.

 

[Graculus]

I know it happened because a) I remember it being reported at the time along with several other indiscriminate acts of violence by Ukrainian forces against separatist civilians and b) because the HRW investigation is still available online and confirms it.

So you can supply links for some stuff... well done you.

It's not actually an investigation, it's a dispatch BTW.

And this is what it says

It is very hard to say at this point whether the Ukrainian government forces at the police station used excessive force.

 

[Graculus]

This is why I laugh every time you accuse other people of being selective;

If you look at the list of deceased here you can see that a fair number were police or mil

Список погибших в Мариуполе 9 мая растет (ФОТО)

0629 составляет список людей, погибших во время военных действий

www.0629.com.ua

 

[smartascarrots]

Might have, Mr selective, might have.

I'm starting.to look forward to the next time, say, Myanmar brasses up a peaceful protest.

I'll CTRL+H some of the scrambled justifications here and watch the authors vent their outrage at how anyone could attempt to justify that instead.

If I'm really lucky, I'll be labelled an apologist for something or other for using their own words.

 

[smartascarrots]

So you can supply links for some stuff... well done you

So you've at least read one?

What did you think of Ukraine's security forces firing on an unarmed crowd? Bad guy stuff or not?