British Army armoured brigade faces the chop

The Treasury do not want to continue to pay 40somethings lots of dosh without getting back something in return.

Some hard decisions are going to have to be made. If you want shiny new kit, it has to be paid for out of reduced personnel costs. Pensions are a component of that equation.

As I said, I am playing Devil's Advocate here, but outrage is not going to make the problem go away.
 

Caecilius

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That's the beauty of rumours, isn't it? The Army desperately needs some new kit and a reduction in numbers is the only way to fund it. As for your second rumour, Gen Messenger certainly has the operational credentials, but is he as politically astute/aware as Gen Carter?
Both of those rumours are from sufficiently well placed sources that I think they have a good chance of being true. The first one especially.
 
Perhaps the Civil Service would like to be called into work post retirement as they are being "paid" by the Treasury?
The difference is this - CS can only draw their pensions from 60 onwards, dependent upon the scheme. If you are on the oldest scheme, you can leave at 55 but take a 5% accutarial reduction for each year that you leave before 60. In my particular case, I can draw a third of my CS Pension at 65 with the balance two years later at 67. I cannot draw this proportion early, although I could draw the initial third from 60.
 
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Both of those rumours are from sufficiently well placed sources that I think they have a good chance of being true. The first one especially.
I don't doubt the first - Army headcount is heading even further south - but for the second I am less sure, although it is the RN's turn to provide the next CDS.
 
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Sarastro

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Yep; it is the hard question being asked. Those in receipt of immediate pensions are, in effect, in receipt of pay so what are they doing to earn it? The CS don't get immediate pensions so why should HM Forces retirees in receipt of such continue to draw public funds without doing something for it?

I know that I am playing Devil's Advocate here but I have actually heard these arguments being made.
That's not people asking a hard question, that's people asking for a hard punch in the face. It is so abysmally moronic that I can't believe it is being taken seriously.

The two, screamingly obvious answers are:

1. ...because no pension anywhere ever has had that conditional, and there is less than zero chance of enforcing it, because the headline everywhere will be: GOVT CONSCRIPTS UNWILLING VETERANS. That's before the 1001 legal cases in which the Govt case will get thrown out of court.

2. ...because an Army of 50 year olds is not an Army, it's a sitcom.

Taken seriously by HMT? I highly doubt it. They're book-keepers, not lunatics.

There is a separate question here, which is: what is the nuclear option if the Bosh invades and Jerry Russian is on Brighton beach? The answer to that is probably: we conscript everyone. In that scenario, of course the Regular Reserve have a framework role other than "rifleman". But it's not the same as saying they are either the Regular or Reserve Army.

The Treasury do not want to continue to pay 40somethings lots of dosh without getting back something in return.
That isn't at all the same statement. The answer will be, like Trident: ok, pensions are now a SS cost. CGS, you can either mobilise your Regular Reserve, or cut elsewhere.

To which that answer will be (although I'm sure we may see Op FORTIFY 2 give it a good try first): cut elsewhere.

The military and government, after a good stretch of successful bluffing, have finally run up against reality. Of course this will produce all sorts of hare-brained schemes. That's all they know how to do. But none of that means anyone else has to listen to them. Sooner or later they will either come up with workable plans, or continue the drift into poverty and irrelevance. My money is on option two.
 
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Re. point 2., there are plenty of ex-Regular 50somethings either in the AR or on FTRS. HMT can see this, which leads them to the conclusion that there is plenty of military life in some old war dogs yet. Op FORTIFY 2 is a racing certainty.
 

Sarastro

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Re. point 2., there are plenty of ex-Regular 50somethings either in the AR or on FTRS. HMT can see this, which leads them to the conclusion that there is plenty of military life in some old war dogs yet. Op FORTIFY 2 is a racing certainty.
Yes, but my incredulous response was to your original post, from which I inferred HMT was meant to be saying:

Not enough Army? Use veterans instead.

In fact, the point you were making was:

Why are we paying for things that aren't providing us value? Get value from them, or we will cost you as if you are.

Not the same thing at all!

PS They've fucked up the FORTIFY branding then. Not a progressive verb. Can't be FORTIFIED: sounds like they've succeeded, so why is it happening again? Can't be FORTIFICATION: sounds like it's a thing already, so why is it happening again. No grammatical option for: CONTINUING TO FORTIFY JUST MORE FORTIFY-Y.

So they'll have to do FORTIFY 2. Which sounds a bit like the first one didn't work. Funny that.
 
I doubt HMT are thinking any of this. CDP's team and the Pay Col's, absolutely.

Anyway, civvies are t subject to AFA06, so I suggest everyone in the Reg Reserve goes and gets stoned. Or fail their fitness test. Or simply not turn up.

I admire the sentiment of wanting to count the Reg Reserve, but there are two hopes of it happen, and Bob is dead.

Oh, and the reason they'll be paying me in my 40s was because they didn't pay me fully for 22 years before hand...
 
Ah, a leap of the imagination then. The Army Regular Reserve does not deliver value for money, certainly for those who are in receipt of immediate pensions and who do not undertake any sort of reserve liability whilst doing so. The Treasury, perhaps not unreasonably , have an expectation that the Army will have robust training and mobilisation plans for such individuals.
 

Sarastro

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Oh, and the reason they'll be paying me in my 40s was because they didn't pay me fully for 22 years before hand...
Come come, we all know that we were paid far more fully than we were worth.

It's just that a load of similar cnuts in the banking sector or Big Four got paid more fuller.
 

Auld-Yin

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Even if the government decided that immediate pension = deployability this itself is also a reducing workforce. As the army gets smaller so do the number of pensioners.

The second point is that we are talking about pensioners. There is a reason why the armed services let their staff retire in what a civvy would consider the middle of a career:- soldiering is a young man's game and having a pool of late 30/40 year olds is not going to fill the manpower issue.
 

Sarastro

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Ah, a leap of the imagination then. The Army Regular Reserve does not deliver value for money, certainly for those who are in receipt of immediate pensions and who do not undertake any sort of reserve liability whilst doing so. The Treasury, perhaps not unreaonably , have an expectation that the Army will have robust training and mobilisation plans for such individuals.
Look, since everyone now knows that the Army is a paper tiger, the actual eventual Army 2020 answer will be just to get a bit of paper and draw a tiger on it, and split the difference.

COSTING

Piece of paper: £0.01
Picture of tiger (© Grayson Perry): £50,000
Consulting fees: £943,000
Marketing campaign: £60,000,000
Capita's profit margin: £800,000,000
ATLAS 40-yr paper infrastructure contract: £2.3bn

Total lifetime cost: £3.169bn
Actual program cost (2060): £413bn

Given the annual defence budget is currently £36bn, that is only £10.3bn a year, before inflation! An absolute bargain!
 
Even if the government decided that immediate pension = deployability this itself is also a reducing workforce. As the army gets smaller so do the number of pensioners.

The second point is that we are talking about pensioners. There is a reason why the armed services let their staff retire in what a civvy would consider the middle of a career:- soldiering is a young man's game and having a pool of late 30/40 year olds is not going to fill the manpower issue.
When you can only fill 27% of your SO2 posts, having a pool of 40somethings is an attractive option...
 

Auld-Yin

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When you can only fill 27% of your SO2 posts, having a pool of 40somethings is an attractive option...
Then, given the size of our army, maybe there are too many SO2 posts! Reducing the soldier footprint does not seem to be on the same level for the officer/staff appointments footprint. Now I realise that there are many officer posts outwith the normal army world but if we are reducing numbers then staff numbers should reflect this.

Of course, the MOD might just be looking at a Cadre rather than an army so that should trouble brew there is a training staff available to get the civilians licked into shape! :rolleyes:
 

Auld-Yin

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Look, since everyone now knows that the Army is a paper tiger, the actual eventual Army 2020 answer will be just to get a bit of paper and draw a tiger on it, and split the difference.

COSTING

Piece of paper: £0.01
Picture of tiger (© Grayson Perry): £50,000
Consulting fees: £943,000
Marketing campaign: £60,000,000
Capita's profit margin: £800,000,000
ATLAS 40-yr paper infrastructure contract: £2.3bn

Total lifetime cost: £3.169bn
Actual program cost (2060): £413bn

Given the annual defence budget is currently £36bn, that is only £10.3bn a year, before inflation! An absolute bargain!
Good to see Capita and ATLAS cutting back on their profit margins. Obviously supporting the army in its time of distress! :(
 
When you can only fill 27% of your SO2 posts, having a pool of 40somethings is an attractive option...
Are you/they on crack? To achieve this would require change to primary legislation; RFA96 explicitly says the Regular Reserve can only be activated in case of "imminent national danger or great emergency". The Army's inability to keep its Officers doesn't count as either....
 
Are you/they on crack? To achieve this would require change to primary legislation; RFA96 explicitly says the Regular Reserve can only be activated in case of "imminent national danger or great emergency". The Army's inability to keep its Officers doesn't count as either....
RFA96 was changed in 2012 - cannot remember the wording but I think it includes the phrase "work of national importance".
 
Then, given the size of our army, maybe there are too many SO2 posts! Reducing the soldier footprint does not seem to be on the same level for the officer/staff appointments footprint. Now I realise that there are many officer posts outwith the normal army world but if we are reducing numbers then staff numbers should reflect this.

Of course, the MOD might just be looking at a Cadre rather than an army so that should trouble brew there is a training staff available to get the civilians licked into shape! :rolleyes:
The problem is that SO3s and SO2s need career courses, so having put some into post, you need to send them away to qualify for promotion. As there isn't a training margin in the unit/HQ/formation, everyone else goes knees to chest, until a reservist turns up or something breaks.

Last year there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth as the AR MTD budget was 150m over spent.
A more grown up response would have been to ask where exactly is regular manning so bad that a million MTDs were needed to keep that aspidistra flying..
 

Auld-Yin

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The problem is that SO3s and SO2s need career courses, so having put some into post, you need to send them away to qualify for promotion. As there isn't a training margin in the unit/HQ/formation, everyone else goes knees to chest, until a reservist turns up or something breaks.

Last year there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth as the AR MTD budget was 150m over spent.
A more grown up response would have been to ask where exactly is regular manning so bad that a million MTDs were needed to keep that aspidistra flying..
My bold. "So having put them into post" - are there too many posts? Is there a whole set up of staff posts just to provide career paths for junior officers?

Don't answer that, I think the answer is obvious!
 

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