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British Airways To Cut 12000 Jobs

To dismiss Ryanair shows you dont know much about human nature, you pay peanuts expect a shitty service but people would rather pay peanuts, thats why RyanAir is so strong, any cancelled flights that some customer may not have been refunded for will be forgotten when they are offering 50 quid seats to a destination other carriers are charging 200 for.
They have had some pretty **** small print for the last 20 years and until Covid their customer base continues to grow, people put up with shit to save a few bucks.
Wizz has/had about a third of passenger numbers of Ryanair, they might take some passengers from Ryanair, but looking at this recent list (last 3 years but before covid) of Airline bankruptcy


I doubt O'Leary will be shitting his pants just yet.

Im anything but dismissive of Ryanair. Ryanair will be Ryanair and they will survive, no sweat. They will however need to face off the likes of Whizz who are defying the odds and have a very strong foothold in East Europe. One of the principles of LoCo operation is “don’t go head to head with a rival on a route if you can avoid it”. RYR were slow off the mark in the east, for good reason, there wasn’t much market. Now there is and largely, Whizz have it.

For sure, you’re right re human nature but increasingly the odd idiot that has a moan in the Fulchester Chronicle about being charged £50 because they didn’t read the small print and forgot to print a boarding pass is now becoming double page spreads in the Sunday Times about the tens of thousands who’ve been shafted.

IMVHO there is a limit to what the greed for a good deal present in human nature is prepared to risk. It is that risk that present a, er, risk to the RYR mindset. Pre Covid you could book a flight with RYR for your example £50, accept it was going to be grim but be reasonably certain you’d get wherever and have the £150 balance from your example to spend on paella and chips washed down with Fosters. No argument there.

Now you book with no guarantee that your hotel will still be open or the Government won’t pull the plug on your destination the night before you travel. Your £50 is very much at risk. Very publicly, people are getting pissed off with this and looking to operators who offer free rebooking, often with incentives to do so, full refunds, free Covid insurance etc etc etc. These companies aren’t doing that out of the goodness of their heart, it costs them money, they’re doing it because it steals a march on those not doing it.

Certainly people will have short memories and many will behave as you suggest but my view is that the sheer scale of the Covid thing, and more specifically its impact on holidays travel will live on much longer in peoples’ memories than say the volcanic ash saga. In the latter event, people did exactly as you described, forgot quickly how appallingly RYR behaved and headed for the cheap deal. I just think Covid and the effect on thinking is a different animal.

Either way, MOL won’t be too worried about going bust but he will be fretting on losing business, not for the cash, more for the fact he has a pathological aversion to losing.
 
To add, a chat with a mate last night might bear my thinking out. She works for a travel agency and mindful of my post yesterday (the one quoted), I asked if they’d seen a change in behaviour amongst punters. Very definitely, many more are now going with packages from one provider rather than building up the various components using multiple suppliers. They are also seeing a big reduction in people saving a few quid here and there by taking non refundable options and one of their biggest incidental earners is brokering travel insurance that they get commission on.

Whether that proves a passing fad and people revert to normal or becomes a more permanent thing remains to be seen but her view was that there would be a swing back but far more people would err on the side of caution long term.

I guess time will tell.
 
Re SWA salaries.

If there is a perception that they pay less it might be only that. I found this:

Southwest Airlines, considered one of the largest domestic airlines based on traffic, is at the top of our list.
Ref: Which Airline Will Have the Highest Pilot Pay in 2018? / ATP Flight School

They seem OK in terms of cabin crew as well:


I think they run (ran?) a profit sharing scheme so any perception of low pay may not take this into account.
 
To add, a chat with a mate last night might bear my thinking out. She works for a travel agency and mindful of my post yesterday (the one quoted), I asked if they’d seen a change in behaviour amongst punters. Very definitely, many more are now going with packages from one provider rather than building up the various components using multiple suppliers. They are also seeing a big reduction in people saving a few quid here and there by taking non refundable options and one of their biggest incidental earners is brokering travel insurance that they get commission on.

Whether that proves a passing fad and people revert to normal or becomes a more permanent thing remains to be seen but her view was that there would be a swing back but far more people would err on the side of caution long term.

I guess time will tell.

Im not really sure how many components are in a holiday, generally its flights and a hotel. For those that struggle to cope in life, like Kroneit (See the hotel booking thread for further details), package holidays are ok, for everyone else, I really have no idea why people go with one provider when you have a much bigger choice and generally cheaper options elsewhere. I dont think Ive ever had a package holiday in my life.
Travel agencies have been closing down all over the UK because they dont fill a need anymore.

With Covid im not surprised people are paying extra to secure their money if it is canceled as the is a significant risk, however once the risk has gone, why bother?
 
Re SWA salaries.

If there is a perception that they pay less it might be only that. I found this:

Southwest Airlines, considered one of the largest domestic airlines based on traffic, is at the top of our list.
Ref: Which Airline Will Have the Highest Pilot Pay in 2018? / ATP Flight School

They seem OK in terms of cabin crew as well:


I think they run (ran?) a profit sharing scheme so any perception of low pay may not take this into account.
They do have a profit share scheme although I’m unsure as to how it works. Such schemes are sometimes confused with bonus schemes which in my experience are very different.

Bonus schemes usually have strategic targets set, sometimes several graduated ones. In our case there’s a basic level that triggers subsequent levels becoming available and we very deliberately tied ours to the same criteria the board had to reach. There was a stumbling block when HR objected saying that managers had personal targets they had to hit so pilots should too, once again demonstrating a total inability to comprehend the job. They tried running it on hours flown but that is wholly at the behest and control of the company and lots of us have highly productive, non flying secondary duties such as instructing in the sim. Next they tried performance as a pilot which was laughable as how do you measure that, number of crashes? In the end we went with just two criteria, management get one, we get one, unless you have an active disciplinary against you.

Profit shares are much better which is why they’re very rare.

Another way of rewarding staff is share options, especially if at favourable terms and until that bastard Brown got involved, they could be very tax advantageous. We had a scheme whereby money was deducted pre tax and iirc it was buy 3 get one free. You gained on not paying income tax on the part of your pay that was deducted and again by getting 25% free and yet again if you hung onto them for 5 years as they weren’t subject to Capital Gains Tax (iirc) if you then sold them. HR did for that too, trotting out the old faithful “it must be open to all” which of course the company wasn’t going to do. If you want pilot T&Cs, go and become a pilot didn’t cut any ice.
 
Im not really sure how many components are in a holiday, generally its flights and a hotel. For those that struggle to cope in life, like Kroneit (See the hotel booking thread for further details), package holidays are ok, for everyone else, I really have no idea why people go with one provider when you have a much bigger choice and generally cheaper options elsewhere. I dont think Ive ever had a package holiday in my life.
Travel agencies have been closing down all over the UK because they dont fill a need anymore.

With Covid im not surprised people are paying extra to secure their money if it is canceled as the is a significant risk, however once the risk has gone, why bother?

That’s because you’re not the average Joe who just wants a fortnight in the sun. At a guess, like me, that’s your idea of hell? I’d rather put my own thing together, bit of loafing about, bit of a road trip, eat out, bit of culture, maybe 3 or 4 different locations, car hire and so on.

Package holidays are here and here to stay. Here’s the figures from TUI U.K. who sell almost exclusively packages (only about 2% is seat only):


TUI is the umbrella organisation for literally dozens of brands. One is First Choice which is exclusively All Inclusive. Their market share, along with Cruises, is rising. The attraction is you can pay for your holiday and leave your wallet at home as everything is covered if all you want to do is lie in the sun. You’d be amazed at how many people never leave the hotel environs which is why these places are so big; everything is behind one big wall. There are of course loads of extras like excursions, water sports (the other type), upmarket dining etc but families can send the kids off for lunch and ice cream / drinks etc whilst parents slob out by the pool. As I say, my idea of hell.

The internet was supposed to be the death of package holidays but actually has increased market share as all the selections can be done from your armchair although as you say, High Street shops are going fast as a result. It hasn’t really changed what people buy, just how they buy it.

Repeat business is massive too. People go to the Hotel El Crappo, it suits them so they go back. Year after Year. TUI spends millions on securing repeat business by having a whole range of products very carefully aimed at each demographic. They hook the youngsters with cheap holidays to Shagaluf, Zante etc, then catch them as young, childless professionals with the Adult Only but Party On deals, next with the young kids at Family set ups with Kids Clubs etc, next with the older kids with loads of jet skis etc, then the Sensatori, high end no kids, then Cruises, Skiing, Adventure, All Inclusive, Holiday Of A Lifetime, Weddings, Budget, Boutique, Multi Centre, the whole range for every wallet, age, interest or any other possible variable.

Back in the day when not every part of the business was pale blue and had TUI written on every conceivable surface (including my shirt, jacket, trousers and hat, all of which have the logo on), people used to say “oh, we always fly Britannia”. No you don’t, you always book a Thomson holiday and we happen to be the in house airline. Lifetime brand loyalty is a religion for those charged with making it happen.

The above figures are actually conservative because they are for bums on aircraft seats. TUI Airways only carries about 90% of TUI holidaymakers so you can safely add 10% to the numbers, almost all packages. The rest are carried by Third Party lift.

Talking of packages, Cruising (the other type) is growing exponentially. A cruise is a package whichever way you, er, package it. You fly to the nearest airport, get bussed to the boat, the floating hotel does its thing and you go home in the reverse process. We take 8 aircraft a week to Barbados to service our own and P&Os cruise programme and slightly smaller programmes elsewhere, worldwide, year round. 5 years ago we had precisely zero cruise ships in the group, now we have I think 7 with another 2 under construction.

Or did.

As for continued aversion to risk Post Covid, as I said previously, some will have short memories, IMHO others won’t. Time will tell. Is the Pre Covid World ever going to return? Who knows.
 
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Some interesting points on which we probably broadly agree. However!

I’d argue that the US/Canada/Caribbean as a whole broadly mirrors Europe. Size, wealth distribution (Or lack of), hub operations, small and big carriers / airframes, number of routes / flights / carriers etc etc. They just all speak broadly the same language and eat crap. Even the lack of national borders is a moot point with the Schengen Agreement. Perhaps the big difference is state aid but here too we have the haves and the have nots.

In short, I don’t see the US as a unique environment for SWA as opposed to say RYR in Europe.

Back to SWA. I’ve no idea how much they get paid in relative terms. This begs the question, if they are relatively low paid, why do they have such empathy with their employer and consequently provide such a stellar service? Even if we accept your premise that they operate in a unique environment I simply cannot accept that the difference is all down to that. So what is going on?

We agree that their corporate leadership is beyond reproach but people want to be paid well don’t they? Well, yes and no which to me, is the answer to the above question. Money only goes so far. If you’re paid a decent wage and love where you work, who you work for and the work that you do it creates a positive experience for both you and the customer. You don’t get a hard time off the customer because they’re getting a good service, they love you, you feel better still, you work harder, deliver better, they love you even more and round goes the virtuous (and upward) spiral.

BA have failed here because the workforce are used to being amongst the best. Along come clowns like Cruz and tell them they’re still the best but remove from them the tools to deliver. They then attack your T&Cs which sends out the message “you’re the best but we don’t value that”. You now have disgruntled passengers being served a crap product that employees are largely unable to influence yet they are the ones getting the abuse and having their pay cut as reward for soaking it up. They get pissed off and give up on trying to polish the turd and the punters get even more disgruntled and become ever more abusive. Passenger figures drop off and profits get hit so the ********* in HQ squeal “hard times” and reach for the knife. And round goes the downward spiral.

In short, I’ve been banging this drum for months now, treat your employees the way you’d want to be treated and regardless of what you pay them, the stuff that doesn’t appear on balance sheets, good will, will go a very, very long way.

Oh, and PS, my experience of SWA, about 40 flights, admittedly over high summer, was that comparatively few were business travellers. I’d question the 80% you cite but have no evidence beyond my observations. I travelled all over the US, early, late, weekdays, weekends, big city to big city, small to small and any combinations thereof so I’m reasonably comfortable in saying I wasn’t just outside of the business travel footprint?
Perhaps you tend to look at things from an aircrew perspective, not a customer perspective? To me, someone who has flown on business at least one a month and as regularly as one a week in Europe, the USA and now Aus, I think they are very different. In Europe, a lot of business travel is by road because the major centres are (relative to the US and Aus) densely spaced . My business trips to Germany invariably involved flying London-Dusseldorf, picking up a hire car and driving. In two days, I could do five or six major cities. In the US, there's no choice but to fly even between adjacent major cities and its been like that long before Euopes aviation market opened up. Europe might be similar in size, but there's bugger all business travel between London and Athens (for example). There's a lot of business travel between Seattle and New York (similar distance) or Miami and Chicago. The big change in Europe is budget leisure travel; the business market has grown but nothing like the recreational market. A second major difference between the European and US market is the prince of multiple flag carriers that don't have to compete on value in the same way as the US airlines do because they have a degree of sinecure (protected landing slots, subsidies etc) that just doesn't exist in the US.

Which sort of brings me on to BA. You keep telling us that BA's workforce used to being among the best. Again, I think that's an insider perspective. They were certainly the best rewarded, but from a customer perspective, I'm not convinced BA ever has been the best. Even back when BA pitched themselves as "The Worlds Favourite Airline", they were only ever the best out of Heathrow. And when your competition was the likes of American Airlines, Continental and TWA, it really wasn't hard to convince yourself that you were something special. I don't think BA's customer experience has ever been anything except average in a very British way; there's been an institutional staleness about BA for 25 years or so.

On to treating staff right; we're really getting in to corporate culture here. It's a two way street; sure, companies have to treat their staff right, but equally, the staff have to treat the company right. Its fine rewarding your staff for being the best, but if that's a myth, or if others have overtaken by doing the same thing faster, better and cheaper, then things have to change. I think Cruz was on a hiding to nothing; he inherited a business which was spending far too much money on wages to be competitive. A business with an ageing, comfortable customer facing workforce with no incentive to change. Unable to trim the cost of wages to a competitive level, he had little choice but to attack other costs. The consequences of doing that directly affected customer service. Its a well worn path TBH; there are very few examples of companies that have become collectively comfortable turning their culture around.

Finally, on the Southwest customer profile, I took it form a Forbes article which was questioning whether Southwest is stalling now it's hit 50. I've flown Southwest on routes which are nearly entirely business; they service cities that no-one flies to for leisure.
 
I don't think BA's customer experience has ever been anything except average in a very British way; there's been an institutional staleness about BA for 25 years or so.

25 years ?

Early 80's, long haul - Adequate, nothing to shout about, good or bad

Early 80's, short haul - Nothing more to say

Mid 80's. long haul - Vowed that would be my last BA flight.

Package holidays are here and here to stay.

Package holidays were my go to option between around 1995 - 2003, twice, sometimes 3 times a year. Mostly around the Caribbean, RUI and Sandals being my resorts of choice.

Tui gets a big tick from me ( for the period 95 - 03 )

@stacker1

If you have no rug rats, or can escape without them. I would recommend that you at least have 1 attempt at an all inclusive Caribbean jaunt
 
Perhaps you tend to look at things from an aircrew perspective, not a customer perspective? To me, someone who has flown on business at least one a month and as regularly as one a week in Europe, the USA and now Aus, I think they are very different. In Europe, a lot of business travel is by road because the major centres are (relative to the US and Aus) densely spaced . My business trips to Germany invariably involved flying London-Dusseldorf, picking up a hire car and driving. In two days, I could do five or six major cities. In the US, there's no choice but to fly even between adjacent major cities and its been like that long before Euopes aviation market opened up. Europe might be similar in size, but there's bugger all business travel between London and Athens (for example). There's a lot of business travel between Seattle and New York (similar distance) or Miami and Chicago. The big change in Europe is budget leisure travel; the business market has grown but nothing like the recreational market. A second major difference between the European and US market is the prince of multiple flag carriers that don't have to compete on value in the same way as the US airlines do because they have a degree of sinecure (protected landing slots, subsidies etc) that just doesn't exist in the US.

Which sort of brings me on to BA. You keep telling us that BA's workforce used to being among the best. Again, I think that's an insider perspective. They were certainly the best rewarded, but from a customer perspective, I'm not convinced BA ever has been the best. Even back when BA pitched themselves as "The Worlds Favourite Airline", they were only ever the best out of Heathrow. And when your competition was the likes of American Airlines, Continental and TWA, it really wasn't hard to convince yourself that you were something special. I don't think BA's customer experience has ever been anything except average in a very British way; there's been an institutional staleness about BA for 25 years or so.

On to treating staff right; we're really getting in to corporate culture here. It's a two way street; sure, companies have to treat their staff right, but equally, the staff have to treat the company right. Its fine rewarding your staff for being the best, but if that's a myth, or if others have overtaken by doing the same thing faster, better and cheaper, then things have to change. I think Cruz was on a hiding to nothing; he inherited a business which was spending far too much money on wages to be competitive. A business with an ageing, comfortable customer facing workforce with no incentive to change. Unable to trim the cost of wages to a competitive level, he had little choice but to attack other costs. The consequences of doing that directly affected customer service. Its a well worn path TBH; there are very few examples of companies that have become collectively comfortable turning their culture around.

Finally, on the Southwest customer profile, I took it form a Forbes article which was questioning whether Southwest is stalling now it's hit 50. I've flown Southwest on routes which are nearly entirely business; they service cities that no-one flies to for leisure.
Very probably to all of that.
 
25 years ?

Early 80's, long haul - Adequate, nothing to shout about, good or bad

Early 80's, short haul - Nothing more to say

Mid 80's. long haul - Vowed that would be my last BA flight.



Package holidays were my go to option between around 1995 - 2003, twice, sometimes 3 times a year. Mostly around the Caribbean, RUI and Sandals being my resorts of choice.

Tui gets a big tick from me ( for the period 95 - 03 )

@stacker1

If you have no rug rats, or can escape without them. I would recommend that you at least have 1 attempt at an all inclusive Caribbean jaunt
And that
 
[drift]

Published by: By David Kaminski-Morrow, Flight Global, on 22 October 2020.

Ex-British Airways 747-400 to be preserved as UK film set.

One of British Airways’ recently-retired Boeing 747-400s is to be preserved as a film set at an airfield 40km south of London Heathrow.


The aircraft (G-CIVW), manufactured in 1998, was parked in March having served its entire commercial life with the UK operator.

It will be transferred on 22 October from Cardiff to the aerodrome at Dunsfold, which already has a modified ex-British Airways and Air Atlanta Europe 747-200 (G-BDXJ) that prominently featured in the 2006 film Casino Royale.

British Airways says the Rolls-Royce RB211-powered aircraft will be delivered to the airport upon arrival, and that it will retain the livery it carried in service.

“While [this 747] will no longer fly, the aircraft will be preserved and given a new lease of life in the world of TV and film, training and special events,” says Dunsfold aerodrome chief executive Jim McAllister.

British Airways says the aircraft will be used for “mock-up interior and exterior shots” and, in time, be opened as an exhibition for visitors.

It operated 11,424 cycles during its service, before being stored initially at Bournemouth and moved to Cardiff on 11 June.

Dunsfold, which serves as a heritage aviation park, has a single active runway of 1,880m, designated 07/25.

1603542863224.png

[photo: Source: Dunsfold Park. Ex-British Airways 747-400 G-CIVW arriving at Dunsfold].


Also posted on "Flightrader 24" thread.

[/drift]
 
BA are to cut their on board food deal with M&S.

The bidders to replace them are Waitrose....

...and Greggs.

Place your bets please.
 
BA are to cut their on board food deal with M&S.

The bidders to replace them are Waitrose....

...and Greggs.

Place your bets please.
I flew to LHR last week, the "in-flight service" was a packet of crisps, a tiny of packet of those things called "pretzels" which aren't pretzels, and a bottle of water.
 
I flew to LHR last week, the "in-flight service" was a packet of crisps, a tiny of packet of those things called "pretzels" which aren't pretzels, and a bottle of water.

Were you on the Sydney flight too?
 
I flew to LHR last week, the "in-flight service" was a packet of crisps, a tiny of packet of those things called "pretzels" which aren't pretzels, and a bottle of water.

I once received a bowl of custard and a lump of puff pastry on an Indian Airlines internal flight. That was it.
I actually laughed out loud.
 
I once received a bowl of custard and a lump of puff pastry on an Indian Airlines internal flight. That was it.
I actually laughed out loud.

I had a 1st Class seat to NY with Indian Airlines which offered as much curry ass you wanted so I was quite excited about that, it was very much Vesta level though which was very disappointing so I didn't eat much at all. Mind you being stuck on a plane full of people scoffing lots of curry might have made for an unpleasant journey once the collective digestive systems had started to do their work so maybe no bad thing.

The plane itself looked like a hand me down, the fittings with something of a 70s style.
 
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I had a 1st Class seat to NY with Indian Airlines which offered as much curry ass you wanted so I was quite excited about that, it was very much Swan Vesta level though which was very disappointing so I didn't eat much at all. Mind you being stuck on a plane full of people scoffing lots of curry might have made for an unpleasant journey once the collective digestive systems had started to do their work so maybe no bad thing.

The plane itself looked like a hand me down, the fittings with something of a 70s style.

Curry ass is a fairly common affliction.

Swan Vesta is a brand of non-safety match.
 
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