Britain's completely underrated role in WWII

ugly

LE
Moderator
One thing I did note as I sipped a beer as I waited for my train was all the taxis at the rank outside the station were Skoda Superbs - not a VW in sight!
My last trip sausage side to Visbeck and I was driving the only German built car in the village. I read up on some of the efforts to get German industrial techniques and machinery back post ww2.
Some was poo poohed as unsuitable, some was latched onto which stunted our own development and some was put to good use. The real problem was we were winding down from wartime professional management and into a slower peacetime economy but with those original owners back running their plants expecting to have the same level of orders from the public as the man in the ministry used to give them!
 
Depends what you mean by collapse. After All Napoleon actually took Moscow and Russia nver collapsed. The Stalinist regime might have collapsed, but I don't think there's much evidence that the Tsarists would have taken over again, so another faction would.

In all honesty, I think much of the ex-soviet population would have quite happily submitted to colonial rule by the Germans.

There has always been a sort of slavish admiration for the Germans within Russia, and its culture has strong bonds, with German even providing much of the more modern vocabulary in the language (along with English and French). Large German populations existed in Russia (not least the Volga Germans), and their relative advancement (towns, construction, agriculture, technology. industry, etc) compared to the locals was held in some awe.

In fact, to be brutal, German rule would have probably collectively benefited the ex-soviet peoples, and advanced their societies in a way that their own tyrants have failed to do to this day.

I say collectively because, of course, of the Germans policy of anti-Semitic genocide. I expect that either the Germans would have eventually stepped back from this policy in their new colonies, given that many of the key local elites requires to administer the lands were of Jewish extraction or, if they'd cracked on anyway, then the latent anti-Semitism in the population would have let it pass (as demonstrably happened in much of occupied Europe). Its worth remembering that the soviets themselves quickly imprisoned and/or murdered most of their own prominent Jewish activists as soon as their wartime propaganda value passed.
 
Let's be honest, if it wasn't for the yanks and Canadians... umm...

Lend and lease agreement comes to mind?

The sheer volume of manpower required...

As for the Russian question Hitler may or may not have signed his own death warrant when he stabbed Stalin in the back when he conducted Operation Barbarossa and well the Japs got nuked with technology we weren't even close to developing but everyone else kind of was...

Bit of a useless argument to say we don't owe them some debt of gratitude?
It should also be remembered that the breaking of Inigma went a long way to shortening the War and despite Hollywood’s efforts to blank out the British, this was achieved by a small band of British geniuses at Bletchley Park.
Breaking Inigma was equivalent , if not greater than the American nuclear campaign against the Japenese, shortening the War and reducing casualties. The British and the Empire stood alone in 41/42, save free French, Polish etc in Western Europe. Pearl Harbour and the Nazi defeat at Stalingrad were pivitol in turning the War, both without British involvement, but it is erksome to be discounted as a nation, I blame Hollywood again for this brain washing of a modern generation
 
It should also be remembered that the breaking of Inigma went a long way to shortening the War and despite Hollywood’s efforts to blank out the British, this was achieved by a small band of British geniuses at Bletchley Park.
Breaking Inigma was equivalent , if not greater than the American nuclear campaign against the Japenese, shortening the War and reducing casualties. The British and the Empire stood alone in 41/42, save free French, Polish etc in Western Europe. Pearl Harbour and the Nazi defeat at Stalingrad were pivitol in turning the War, both without British involvement, but it is erksome to be discounted as a nation, I blame Hollywood again for this brain washing of a modern generation
Thank you, and now we've returned to the original subject matter :)
 
The Soviets freed themselves from the Nazis.... then occupied Eastern Europe and subjected the populace to the same brutal treatment they'd received from the Nazis. The Soviets did NOT free Europe!
Okay, so I should have said 'helped' to free Europe.
 
The final payment made by the UK was in 2006. Perhaps we need another Marshal Plan to pay for the welfare state again?

ETA: And Germany's repayments were massively written off. To the victor the spoils, eh? :)
It was realisedin the early 50s with the rise of communism that west Germany needed rebuilding.

Up until then the French we’re still trying to make Germany a peasant state and deforesting the country once they’d secured the Saar basin and Germany’s coal reserves.
 
Quoting Wiki for convenience:
"Between June 1941 and May 1945, Britain delivered to the USSR:
  • 3,000+ Hurricanes aircraft
  • 4,000+ other aircraft
  • 27 naval vessels
  • 5,218 tanks (including 1,380 Valentines from Canada)
  • 5,000+ anti-tank guns
  • 4,020 ambulances and trucks
  • 323 machinery trucks (mobile vehicle workshops equipped with generators and all the welding and power tools required to perform heavy servicing)
  • 1,212 Universal Carriers and Loyd Carriers (with another 1,348 from Canada)
  • 1,721 motorcycles
  • £1.15bn worth of aircraft engines
  • 1,474 radar sets
  • 4,338 radio sets
  • 600 naval radar and sonar sets
  • Hundreds of naval guns
  • 15 million pairs of boots
The Valentine was kept in production by us until 1944, long after we had declared it obsolete, because the Soviets asked us to keep sending it. They used it as a light reconnaissance tank, because, although slow, it had fantastic mobility in difficult terrain, was very well armoured, was small, and far more reliable than any Russian vehicle. The Poles pulled one of out of a river a few years ago, still in remarkable condition, and there is some photographic evidence that a Valentine (probably the same regiment as lost the specimen in the river) was actually the first Sov tank to reach the Reichstag in 1945, but with that fact suppressed for a more politically correct bunch of T-34s.
 
In fact, to be brutal, German rule would have probably collectively benefited the ex-soviet peoples, and advanced their societies in a way that their own tyrants have failed to do to this day.
No -
They were on the list for extermination as well - there would have been nothing but Germanic peoples From Germany to the Urals
 
Holly crap that john peate has got some info on how much the Brits did. Very informative and will need to remember that source for future discussions.
 
No -
They were on the list for extermination as well - there would have been nothing but Germanic peoples From Germany to the Urals
By starving them out for instance, the Hunger Plan or Herbert Backer Plan, killing 'X million people' and several times more than the Holocaust. Destroying Soviet industry and its industrial work force, siezing raw materials and in effect, converting them to peasant agriculture.

A Nazi war of annihilation is conceivable, taking into account Nazi attitudes towards Bolshevism. The generally unknown “Staatssekretäre” conference, May 2 1941, outlined the mass starvation of millions of Eastern Europeans by stealing their provisions and commodities, oilseed, grain etc. These would be redistributed to Germany while ring fencing enough supplies for German occupation forces.

See <<Alex J. Kay>> 2006.
 
No -
They were on the list for extermination as well - there would have been nothing but Germanic peoples From Germany to the Urals

Well, I think practical realities would have changed all that ideology, and actually did in the event. Colonies would be useless as uninhabited wastelands, without a workforce or administration. The Germans quickly adopted the administrations and peoples they did occupy, and they soon welcomed large elements of those populations into their own forces.

The soviet populations were considerably intermixed, and many came from groups or heritages that the Nazis were actually trying to court and build global alliances with - particularly Balkan slavs, Turkmen, Muslims and Asiatics. Much of the population west of the Urals was also distinctly Aryan - actual Germans, and people of Scandinavian, Polish, Hungarian, Austrian, French and even Italian descent.
 
The Germans quickly adopted the administrations and peoples they did occupy, and they soon welcomed large elements of those populations into their own forces.

.
Dont confuse wartime expediency - with long term strategy - or indeed persons deemed to be of German ethnicity in eastern Europe being conscripted with now tolerating untermensch

I think certain demographics that had been more than willing to assist with the Jewish problem - would have been somewhat dismayed to learn they were next on the list.

Not for nothing were large numbers of children classed as look German enough and taken from eastern European families and sent to german ones
 

DaManBugs

LE
Book Reviewer
It was realisedin the early 50s with the rise of communism that west Germany needed rebuilding.

Up until then the French we’re still trying to make Germany a peasant state and deforesting the country once they’d secured the Saar basin and Germany’s coal reserves.
It wasn't the French, it was the Septics. They were following a post-war plan (the so-called “Morgenthau Plan”) to return the Frog, Brit and Septic zones in West Germany to a rural agriculture so that a repeat of WWII would be nigh on impossible. That was done with the implementation between April 1945 and July 1947of Joint Chiefs of Staff Directive 1067 (JCS1067), the objective of which was to restrict German industry to its projected peacetime needs. Every sector of industry was reviewed with that in mind and around 1,500 manufacturing plants were scheduled for destruction in May 1946, along with restrictions on steel production. The plan was eventually discarded as unworkable in view of the desperate need in all of Europe for German industrial goods.

MsG
 

skid2

LE
Book Reviewer
Telling that 9 out of 10 German casualties of the war occurred on the eastern front
One of the things which surprised my father when we visited Germany. (He was part of the post war occupation) was that he never met any ex Wehrmacht who fought against the brits and Americans.
They all fought on the eastern front.
 
One of the things which surprised my father when we visited Germany. (He was part of the post war occupation) was that he never met any ex Wehrmacht who fought against the brits and Americans.
They all fought on the eastern front.
They were just being polite. Most of that generation did not want to say they fought against the forces that were rebuilding Germany.
 

DaManBugs

LE
Book Reviewer
One of the things which surprised my father when we visited Germany. (He was part of the post war occupation) was that he never met any ex Wehrmacht who fought against the brits and Americans.
They all fought on the eastern front.
That seems to be a general habit. Just like practically all the Frogs were part of the French Resistance after the war. I also recall that many folks I talked to when I returned to East Germany in February 1990 all claimed to have been a part of the dissident movement there that eventually brought down the Berlin Wall.

MsG
 

skid2

LE
Book Reviewer
That seems to be a general habit. Just like practically all the Frogs were part of the French Resistance after the war. I also recall that many folks I talked to when I returned to East Germany in February 1990 all claimed to have been a part of the dissident movement there that eventually brought down the Berlin Wall.

MsG
It’ll be like finding those who voted for brexit in time to come.
 

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