Britain ran secret prison in Germany after end of WWII...

#1
...where inmates including Nazi party members were tortured and starved to death.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,1669544,00.html

Initially, most of the detainees were Nazi members or former members of the SS, rounded up in an attempt to prevent any Nazi insurgency, although a significant number were also businessmen.

Even today, the Foreign Office is refusing to release photographs taken of some of the "living skeletons" on their release.
So can we say that the UK had own GULAG?
 
#3
Darth_Doctrinus said:
Old 'news'.
The interrogation camp that turned prisoners into living skeletons

German spa became a forbidden village where Gestapo-like techniques were used

Ian Cobain
Saturday December 17, 2005
December 17, 2005? It's today. So the news become 'old' within one day.

By late 1946, the papers show, an increasing number were suspected Soviet agents. Some were NKVD officers - Russians...
Do you mean that it was well-known? So Russians (formally allies) were tortured to death. It is something new (at least for me).
 
#4
Britain had its own Gulag? Ironic that it would be a Russian that would compare one installation to the systematic arrest, torture, execution, deportation, and forced labour of millions and millions of innocent people in the Soviet Union. Moral relativism at its worst.

Sergey, do you write for the Guardian by any chance?
 
#5
1946- Formerly allies- not formally allies, and allies are not always friends.

It's old news because any historian of the period would tell you as much. By the way there were also assassination teams roaming around looking for bad guys.
 
#6
This has been known about for years - on TV a few weeks ago I think. Guardian having a slow news day....mind you someone will no doubt be putting a claim in !!
 
#8
Well i've got few problems with torturing nazis or russian spies to death then or now . It seems they did some perfectly innocent blokes and some who even wanted to help us .for **** sakes if your going to do this stuff , and, I'm not sure it actually gets more info than less violent means.
Either get it done professionallly .or admit its just for vengence .
 
#9
stoatman said:
Britain had its own Gulag? Ironic that it would be a Russian that would compare one installation to the systematic arrest, torture, execution, deportation, and forced labour of millions and millions of innocent people in the Soviet Union. Moral relativism at its worst.

Sergey, do you write for the Guardian by any chance?
My English is too ugly and frankly speaking I don't like Guardian. The newspaper uses to publish unverified 'facts', presents opinions as news.

So I'm interesting is this story (new for me) a falsehood or not. Probably not. In this case, it would be obvious 'insulting of Britishness'.

Mainly Russians were victims of GULAG and mainly Russians were GULAGS's guards. It is mainly our internal problem and there is a huge number of publications on this theme in Russia, archives are open.

By contrast, as I understand, at least something connecting with British prison in Bad Nenndorf is secret even now. But why? Do you think that relatives of the victims have right to know the fate of Russian prisoners?

By the way, do know even one Briton who was a victim of GULAG? So real moral relativism is an endless rant about GULAG without even mentioning of Bad Nenndorf.

Take The Telegraph for example and try to seek two words: GULAG and Nenndorf. Try to find Nenndorf on BBC.
 
#10
Daily Mail, August 2001

Referencing a book published in September 2001 (something tells me that, by the time it was published, the newspapers may have become concerned with other matters...)

I admit that I didn't know about this until I googled it; but it doesn't seem to be a particularly well-hidden secret that the Guardian has just unearthed. Darth's right, it's old news.

The Mail article does a surprisingly good job of examining the reasons it might have happened, and shortcomings in the initial occupation of Germany.

smithie
 
#11
smithie said:
Daily Mail, August 2001

Referencing a book published in September 2001 (something tells me that, by the time it was published, the newspapers may have become concerned with other matters...)

I admit that I didn't know about this until I googled it; but it doesn't seem to be a particularly well-hidden secret that the Guardian has just unearthed. Darth's right, it's old news.

The Mail article does a surprisingly good job of examining the reasons it might have happened, and shortcomings in the initial occupation of Germany.

smithie
Smithie!

I have found this article too and also an article in Independent

http://www.looksmartsoccer.com/p/articles/mi_qn4159/is_20050814/ai_n14885032#continue

The interrogation centre was set up by MI5 in the aftermath of Germany's surrender in 1945 to extract information about post-war Nazi activity and Soviet-run zones of Germany.

These disclosures follow a series of similar allegations levelled at British troops in Iraq...
 
#12
KGB_resident said:
[
By the way, do know even one Briton who was a victim of GULAG? So real moral relativism is an endless rant about GULAG without even mentioning of Bad Nenndorf.
Solzhenitsyn refers to a least one British servicemen in Gulag which either he or an acquaintance met in transit (I cannot remember which, and I'm not going to dig through the book to find out). There is also a book called Stalin's British victims which tells the story of four Britons who were executed or ended up in Gulag.

So yes, we do know of Britons who were victims.
 
#13
stoatman said:
KGB_resident said:
[
By the way, do know even one Briton who was a victim of GULAG? So real moral relativism is an endless rant about GULAG without even mentioning of Bad Nenndorf.
Solzhenitsyn refers to a least one British servicemen in Gulag which either he or an acquaintance met in transit (I cannot remember which, and I'm not going to dig through the book to find out). There is also a book called Stalin's British victims which tells the story of four Britons who were executed or ended up in Gulag.

So yes, we do know of Britons who were victims.
But it appears that there were Russian victims of British GULAG, so have we right to know their names? You refer to the book about Stalin's British victims but British governments kept the story about Bad Nenndorf in secret. So how similar book about Russian victims could appear?
 
#14
These weren't Gulags or Death Camps, they were Internment Centres and POW cages. The US had a few in Europe as well and conditions were as appalling as they were in the British Camps. In one centre the Yanks had 1,200 die of malnutrition related diseases.

The basic facts are that German POW's and Internees were less favoured in terms of rations and medical care than the people who had been 'liberated'.

My own father (also from the Royal Welch) was a 'Bluecap' guard in a POW camp post 1945, (having been returned from Germany where his regiment had been fighting) where the prisoners were detained as forced labour long after the war was over, albeit in much better conditions than their counterparts who were detained in fomer battlezones.
 
#15
GDav said:
These weren't Gulags or Death Camps, they were Internment Centres and POW cages. The US had a few in Europe as well and conditions were as appalling as they were in the British Camps. In one centre the Yanks had 1,200 die of malnutrition related diseases.

The basic facts are that German POW's and Internees were less favoured in terms of rations and medical care than the people who had been 'liberated'.

My own father (also from the Royal Welch) was a 'Bluecap' guard in a POW camp post 1945, (having been returned from Germany where his regiment had been fighting) where the prisoners were detained as forced labour long after the war was over, albeit in much better conditions than their counterparts who were detained in fomer battlezones.
GDav!

I agree with you. Really most of the camps were not Death or Extermination Camps. But it appears that there was one (and very important) exception. I mean this particular prison. I hope you agree that if Soviet officers were its victims then it would be fair (at least) to publish their names. Btw, names of Polish officers that were killed in Katyn were published long ago. Or maybe it is too difficult problem for British government?
 
#16
[quote="KGB_By the way, do know even one Briton who was a victim of GULAG? So real moral relativism is an endless rant about GULAG without even mentioning of Bad Nenndorf.

.[/quote]

I'd never heard of the British camp until I read this thread. I cannot condone torture or "extra judicial" execution under any circustances - but it has always amazed me that so few war criminals were executed in the West after WW2.

As regards Brits in the Gulag, as a young boy I used to work on a farm. The tractor driver was a solid bloke, not given to telling tales. He did, however, once say that having been "liberated" in Poland as a POW, and having told the Russians that he had been captured in Yugoslavia near the end of the war - he was held until 1953. I cannot verify the truth of this.

Other Brits did end up in the Gulag tho - I believe several "sympathisers" who went to Russia in the 20s/30s fell foul of Stalins purges. A short "google" comes up with stuff like this : http://www.videofact.com/english/gulags7.htm

Dunno if there is any truth in it - I know a lot of East Asian "MIA" stuff is faked to get cash from the families.
 
#17
I totally agree that if any Soviet officers were interned it should be made public. Why would the UK want to imprison Soviet officers though? The Soviet Union was our ally and although things were strained at times because of Marshall Stalin's difficult personality I cannot see the remainder of the tri-party agreement wanting to alienate him by interning or imprisoning members of the Soviet Officer Corps.
 
#18
All under Old Labour, one does wonder if New Lacour will produce something.
Mind you both seem partial to Courts Martial for serving soldiers.
john
 
#19
KGB_resident said:
Mainly Russians were victims of GULAG and mainly Russians were GULAGS's guards. It is mainly our internal problem and there is a huge number of publications on this theme in Russia, archives are open.

By contrast, as I understand, at least something connecting with British prison in Bad Nenndorf is secret even now. But why? Do you think that relatives of the victims have right to know the fate of Russian prisoners?

By the way, do know even one Briton who was a victim of GULAG? So real moral relativism is an endless rant about GULAG without even mentioning of Bad Nenndorf.
The following brief synopsis of Nigel Cawthorne's The Iron Cage may suffice to answer your final question Sergey:

At the end of World War II over 30,000 British and Commonwealth soldiers ‘liberated’ from German prisoner of war camps in 1945 by the Red Army disappeared into the gulags. More prisoners joined them in the 1950s, taken from the battlefields of Korea. They never returned home.

In June 1992, President Boris Yeltsin admitted that Americans taken in the same way had been imprisoned in Soviet labour camps. ‘We don’t have complete data,” he said, “and can only surmise that some of them may be alive.”


I read this book Sergey. It is based on a quite astonishing level of detailed archival research. Its subject - namely that tens of thousands of Allied POWs simply disappeared into the USSR after they were 'liberated' by the Red Army from German POW camps - is nothing short of astonishing. It is therefore no wonder that Soviet military and intelligence officers were held in the British camp referred to at the beginning of this thread, as the Allies - specifically the US and UK - were only too painfully aware of Soviet bad faith some time before the war ended. SMERSH, NKVD, and GRU agents were roaming about behind the lines in the final months of the war with the express purpose of spying on their nominal allies and ensuring that the territories about to experience the dubious benefits of Red Army 'liberation' were prepared to fall quietly into the hands of Communist 'clients'.

Before you throw brickbats at the British for such places as Bad Nenndorf you might do well to remember that the Soviets kept open the very concentration camps they liberated in their 'zone', merely replacing the Jewish inmates with - ironically - recently freed Soviet POWs, whom Stalin regarded as being suspect due to contact with the West. The island of Rugen off the north-east German coast was turned into a massive internment camp for landed aristocrats from eastern Germany who had been thrown off their land and out of the homes (the unlucky ones were simply murdered), places they had occupied for centuries, to make way for the Communist lunacy that was 'collectivisation' which naturally enough failed utterly, producing near-famine conditions in what had been up until then the breadbasket of Germany. This is one of the reasons why East Germany was such an economic, agricultural and cultural cesspit for its existence. And let us not even begin to look at the hundreds of thousands - indeed millions - of Germans who were murdered in the Soviet occupation zone....some 14 million alone were displaced.
 
#20
Gallowglass, I ask you to bear in mind that this young man we're speaking to hasn't had the priviledge of a free press all of his days and needs to be helped rather than chastised.

We must be sympathetic to the ordinary people who used to be under Soviet rule. They didn't have our freedoms and need time to adjust. They also need to be allowed a pride in their own nation, no matter how young their democracy is: remember, yours is only a year younger!

No disrespect intended.
 

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