Discussion in 'US' started by jumpinjarhead, Feb 6, 2010.
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Some good points in the article discussed in this post:
Oh yes, I can really see a proposal to bring back conscription being a huge vote winner. This Yingling bod seems to be confusing two problems - the utter failure of the US to plan for the aftermath of the Iraq war but actually to do a number of things that were the exact opposite of what was required, in short to make a total b@lls of the whole thing, largely through ingrained American ignorance of any country but their own, bolstered by the usual smug arrogance that they don't need to find out, AND the sharing of the military burden, which ignores the fact that those with means, like Clinton for instance, find ways of dodging the draft and leave it to others to do their dangerous duty for them. I certainly wouldn't want to have to lean on unwilling conscripts instead of dedicated and trained regulars. TG when we had National Service the RN had only a tiny number of NS bodies but I knew a number that didn't pul their weight (but others that got really stuck in). The waste of their time was saddening too, I later had a colleague who had spent two years guarding Dover Castle against the French (I suppose).
Without commenting on your IMHO overbroad Septic slagging, I will say that these are knotty issues politically and socially. I fought in a war involving conscripts and while I saw instances like that you describe, I also saw a lot of heroism. The upside more broadly is it ensures the people are fully engaged and connected to those military adventures of our political masters such that it is more likely that the people will have more control over such decisions. Conscription also has the value of involving more citizens in their government. The old system had its flaws in terms of Clintonesque dodging but even so it did have a lot to commend it from a citizenship standpoint more than the military benefits.
I worry that our all volunteer approach runs the risk of creating a warrior class that is virtually mercenary in its societal role and that is not healthy for a republic. IMHO there is something very wrong when the typical civilian scene is totally devoid of any hint that we are in 2 wars.
To the extent that the Afghan war is an away match, that's bound to happen. Incidentally I think the reason conscription worked here in WW2 was that the entire nation was up to its eyeballs in the war, not just the armed forces.
Wars are too easy for politicians to wage when the people that go do their bidding are too isolated from the broader society. I still think the citizenry of a democratic nation should be more intimately involved on a broader scale than as it is now where the wars are "real" primarily only to the families and friends of those serving.
I read a piece penned by Colonel David Hackworth way back in 2002 if I remember correctly, along the same lines as Yingling`s. I think Hack called for the return of the citizen soldier but in a form more like national service.
Is Yingling still serving?
When I saw him in April 2009 at a conference he was CO of 1st Battalion, 21st Field Artillery.
Not just no, but FCUK NO!
We dont have the Facilities anymore to suddenly take in 200K draftees, much less the issues with dependents, training resources(ranges, weapons, ammo, instructors, cadre, etc). For what after all that?
2 year hitch with about 1/3 just to trainup(even longer for certain specialities).
And not to mention, the left goes berserk, the college kiddies run for Canada, the political suicide for any politician who votes this in.
Why would we need conscription at the moment? I could see the point in a world war but otherwise...
I would love to see the chavs in uniform but look how the last draft worked for the septics in Vietnam did not work to well. Would it be a can of worms now? and can UK plc fund it and would the chavs in uniform be any good. My boy is only 14 and he wants to join up he is super fit and clued up right up the ying yang sad git reads all my old weapon pams etc even get's me to update them from the lads at work he wants to make a life in the forces would chaves in uniform I do not think so and would they have the moral courage to actually do the job. During the last war which the septics were late for (as usual) the British youth flocked to the cause and flag as UK plc was in danger my question is can the youth of today see the danger from Terry T no of course not we donât have him waiting to storm our beaches there fore they have no interest in defending the country.
I agree with the Colonel, and applaud him for having the integrity, intestinal fortitude, and moral courage to recognize and bring forth issues that others will not.
I was vehemently opposed to conscription, however, without the support of citizen volunteers, and elected and military leadership, a professional military force will not be able to maintain the numbers, or the quality, of the troops it needs to efficiently and effectively maintain the force. When civilians living in the lap of luxury have no need to enlist to fight in a foreign land, they don't.
The failure to recruit troops at an appropriate level results in lowering recruitment standards, and using cash bonuses as enticements, and this in turn weakens the conventional force. I would go so far as to say that conscription would actually bring a higher standard of recruit to the services since the pool of candidates would be much larger, and standards could be maintained at a higher level.
Conscription is a viable option indeed, however, I am of the opinion that our congress would completely fvck up the potential to raise or maintain standards, and would use it to instead fill the ranks with the same idiots that need "waivers" and big fat bonuses to enlist that we get today. No difference really, except we save the funds used for bonuses.
I especially agree with the Colonel concerning the use of force as it relates to the war powers act, and feel we have completely fvcked this one up yet again. If the people will not support it, and congress will not declare a war, than all we are doing is half assing, wasting lives, and wasting cash, as we did in Viet Nam. It is not worth it.
Failure to identify realistic and quantifiable objectives, and the failure to provide the resources to accomplish those objectives in a timely manner, leads to an inexcusable waste of manpower and resources. We failed to learn this from Viet Nam.
Among other things...
I'm with fally on this one. Why do we need conscription?
Very good point of view
While I don't agree with politics and the objectives of waging war on foreign real estate for what can be described as neferious commercial interests (oil, strategic territory etc) I think alot of "Right thinking" members of the site would like to see national service as a social tool in the UK to imbue the youth of the day with certain positive values and a commonality. And perhaps as a political detterent to sending our youth to war unneccesarily
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