Brexit - The Final

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It was a previous parliament that did all those things, and the frankly the playing field has changed since 2016.

Again, you expect parliament to act like unthinking drones and not react to events based upon their own judgement.

Shame for one so focused on the perceived constitutional aspects of brexit to the utter exclusion of every other consideration
Now you're just regurgitating half understood concepts advanced in the Sunday papers.

If MPs want to stop Brexit/introduce control mechanisms to the process, the appropriate and constitutional route is to repeal the Withdrawal Act. Of course any party taking such action would pay a massive political penalty but then that's how democracy (and leadership) is supposed to work.
 
I feel that the referendum was not necessarily a judgement call to delegate to the electorate but rather an acceptance that the electorate had a right to a referendum, at least since Lisbon, on the grounds of self-determination, as continued membership of the EU decided how we should be governed.

Under international law, self determination applies to Peoples, not nations nor governments. And certainly not trading blocs.

Looked at this way, the politicians had and have no choice in the matter. It is not for them to decide, apart from as part of the electorate with an individual vote.

I cannot understand why much more has not been made of this argument. It stands as one of the foremost rights we hold and cannot reasonably be gainsaid or argued against. Economics has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Anything that ties us in perpetuity to the EU is a denial of self determination, something I value over everything else outside of family and concerning society.



Edited to add 'not'


Its not being discussed because it is a profound and fundamental justification for Brexit, whereas most of the means of public debate (media, politics) are firmly in the Remain faction.

Its also deliberately not being discussed because Brexit is itself part of a much greater and epochal constitutional crisis that has been building in UK (and the rest of the modern democratic world) for decades - i.e. the growing feeling in the electorate that their votes are ultimately meaningless, that the parliamentary system is a sham, and that they are simply being managed through a bread-and-circuses technique by an unaccountable political establishment.

The current Brexit debacle is of course much more than just whether UK stays in the EU or not. Its actually an existential question about whether people rule themselves (as in the concept behind a parliamentary democracy) or if they are to be led by the nose and managed by some form of unaccountable technocracy/plutocracy/tyranny. The indications are that it is the latter.


Its easy for tabloid-readers both home and abroad to mock and sneer at the chaos in the British political system (and its chaos is a direct result of the corruption arising from a creeping statist mentality), but I think more serious and thoughtful observers now recognise that this is happening because Britain is the leading democracy of the modern era, and where Britain goes, all other modern democracies will inevitably follow.
 
It was a previous parliament that did all those things, and the frankly the playing field has changed since 2016.

Again, you expect parliament to act like unthinking drones and not react to events based upon their own judgement.

Shame for one so focused on the perceived constitutional aspects of brexit to the utter exclusion of every other consideration
Baggy. You are beginning to sound just like Owen Jones from the Guardian. A supposed political commentator who is clueless.
 

skid2

LE
Book Reviewer
May is becoming a national embarrassment. As flagged in the Telegraph, the Chairman of the 1922 Committee has told her she no longer has the support of the majority of her MP's, yet she's refusing to resign.

She is also now refusing to have a vote on her Brexit deal because she'll lose it. From your link.


She won't have the vote because demands to resign if she loses it will become irresistible.

A truly out of her depth, pathetic woman whose only ambition seems to be to stay in Number 10 as long as possible despite humiliation after humiliation.

Wordsmith
And yet she's still there and it looks like she'll go at a time of her choosing too. No doubt to a comfortable seat in the Lords.


Wasn't it this time a year ago someone had her clinging on by her fingertips, the end was nigh, her demise was assured.

It wouldn't surprise me if she's still around when Brexit is a quietly ditched embarrassment.

If you think it can't be done, look at Daesh, where they were in Syria 18 months ago and where they are now.
 

skid2

LE
Book Reviewer
The Last Leg is brilliant and absolutely makes my week especially with Adam Hills view on certain subjects and hilarious rants,

However,

I stopped watching it over a month ago as most of the show was being taken up by anti-Brexit material which was really pissing me off as I reckon as high percentage of viewers probably voted to leave.

It will be interesting to see their viewing figures when they come out later in the year.
Up apparently, very healthy thanks to being very critical of brexit, IDS and his cohorts. It's doing them no harm at all.
 
I'm still not in favour of a second referendum and would prefer Parliament to sort out this mess. However, I do recognise another referendum is where we may well end up.
I am against the referendum, because I support brexit and don't want it overturned... However, I consider myself rational and logical. With parliament broken and if they don't act, then put it back into our hands. There should be consequences for their failure.
 
I feel that the referendum was not necessarily a judgement call to delegate to the electorate but rather an acceptance that the electorate had a right to a referendum, at least since Lisbon, on the grounds of self-determination, as continued membership of the EU decided how we should be governed.

Under international law, self determination applies to Peoples, not nations nor governments. And certainly not trading blocs.

Looked at this way, the politicians had and have no choice in the matter. It is not for them to decide, apart from as part of the electorate with an individual vote.

I cannot understand why much more has not been made of this argument. It stands as one of the foremost rights we hold and cannot reasonably be gainsaid or argued against. Economics has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Anything that ties us in perpetuity to the EU is a denial of self determination, something I value over everything else outside of family and concerning society.



Edited to add 'not'
The referendum itself was a non-binding binary choice. It was the promises made by the two main parties and the legislation subsequently passed which made it a binding decision which the public now has every legitimate right to expect to be honoured.
 
They can handle 50 tonne MBTs.

Yup I know that! But that isn't the same as handling loaded articulated lorries on the hard shoulder of the M25
I'm not suggesting they aren't capable, more asking if the equipment is geared for it

Can a MAN SX rock up, chuck an underlift on an artic and clear the motorway in a short space of time? What is its max tow? Suspended? Underlift?
I have no idea, I've never looked at one. Thats why I was asking
 
Possibly the best and most accurate rant I have seen on the whole subject.
Very funny, but quite sad when you think about the facts.
That was very good. What it drove home for me is that they should have accepted the democratic vote to leave and got on with it and they wouldnt be in this mess.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
The referendum itself was a non-binding binary choice. It was the promises made by the two main parties and the legislation subsequently passed which made it a binding decision which the public now has every legitimate right to expect to be honoured.
No it stated on the voting paper it was to be carried out by the govt, if thats not binding would you like to buy a bridge?
 
I am against the referendum, because I support brexit and don't want it overturned... However, I consider myself rational and logical. With parliament broken and if they don't act, then put it back into our hands. There should be consequences for their failure.
I don't agree.

A second referendum would be a de facto legitimisation of the right of the well-resourced and well-connected to disrupt or prevent any legitimate political programme they disapproved of, regardless of the law and regardless of any undertakings freely made by them previously.

I don't see how democracy is sustainable if that principle is established.

The Remainers need to understand that it's all very well for people to subvert the democratic process to impede something they disapprove of and promote a preferred alternative, but it sets a precedent that cuts both ways.

I suspect we'd never have heard the end of it if the referendum had gone the other way and Brexiters had used a Parliamentary majority to force Brexit through anyway.

The big winner in all of this is Momentum and their opposite numbers on the Right pushing their 'Democracy is a sham' messaging.
 
No it stated on the voting paper it was to be carried out by the govt, if thats not binding would you like to buy a bridge?
Technically the referendum itself was non-binding. It was all the related messaging, including your example, the manifestos and declared government policy at the time, together with subsequent legislation, which created the binding framework and destroyed the argument that no-one knew what they were voting for.
 

skid2

LE
Book Reviewer
Interesting concept



And remoaners scratch their heads and try to work out why they are ridiculed.
Not at all, Daesh looked to be unstoppable in the area attracting paid volunteers from all over the world. Look at the state of them now.

At one stage brexiters used to be 'We won' (despite not knowing what they won)
The leaders and chief propagandists and protagonists have all run for cover.

The brexit experiment seems to be in tatters, leadership all over the place. Planned and heavily advertised public protests turning into an exercise in ignominy.

Tommy Robinson certainly hasn't revitalised UKIP. The brexit party leader has resigned. Farage has seriously miscalculated his support, look at the state of his misery walk/bus run.

The brexit backers are under investigation. People who voted leave seriously regretting what they did and admitting they didn't mean to win, it was just to teach the government a lesson.

And now all we seem to have are lunatic little pockets of holdouts maintaining its all going well.

I'll make one prediction, compared to today's protest in London, the brexit one at the end of March will either be quietly called off or an object of derision.
Like every other public protest

Here's one they did earlier they attracted 15 people
image.jpeg
 
I am against the referendum, because I support brexit and don't want it overturned... However, I consider myself rational and logical. With parliament broken and if they don't act, then put it back into our hands. There should be consequences for their failure.
Referendum, stay in the EU, then a GE, hand over power to Corbyn and his crew. Now that will give you brexiters something to drip about. I’ve said all along you can’t trust a single one of the self serving lizards to do anything further than feather thier own nests .
 

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