Brexit - The Final

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ancienturion

LE
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Gout Man

LE
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Canada ++, Norway, Switzerland or WTO?

Have you not realised that Johnson is not a Brexiteer? It's merely a vehicle for his ambition to be World King.

He's a rather liberal One Nation Tory who will drag the party back towards the centre now he no longer has to yield to the DUP and the ERG. I'd say he has CONned you.
Oh god, now your mate Grieve and the rest of the wets have been replaced and you now know that we ARE going to leave you have started a new desperate argument.
You must be the only person who thinks Boris isn’t right of centre.
Just face it, you lost the referendum you lost the arguments and the election. The remainers blocking everything have finally been put in their place and we as a country are moving forward.
Except it and stop this drivel.
 
Johnties, Tarquils and Samanthas have taken over for the night shift.

View attachment 436821
They probably think they are being very daring and outrageous...

While the rest of the UK shrugs and thinks they are a bunch of tw*ts...
 
Where did the Queen state that? The Act of Union Article III states: "That the United Kingdom of Great Britain be Represented by one and the same Parliament to be stiled the Parliament of Great Britain". That is still the case. The United Kingdom is represented by the UK Parliament.
Go tell that to Sturgeon. She seems to have a comprehension failure.
 
We haven't left yet. Give it a couple of months and people will be complaining about Johnson's insufficiently Brexitty Brexit.
Not really, it's his job to formulate the Brexit and to make parliament face up their responsibilities. That's what they're paid for and all the leavers ever wanted. We didn't ask for EUtopia because no one asked us.
 
Canada ++, Norway, Switzerland or WTO?

Have you not realised that Johnson is not a Brexiteer? It's merely a vehicle for his ambition to be World King.

He's a rather liberal One Nation Tory who will drag the party back towards the centre now he no longer has to yield to the DUP and the ERG. I'd say he has CONned you.
Lost on you is the fact that I actually support one nation conservatism, we're a pragmatic lot on the whole and want something workable that we can hold parliament to account for. You do remember the Tamworth Manifesto don't you, you know the one formulated by D'israeli. Bit too Ironic for you??
 
Sounds like my wife's Facebook page yesterday.

They're delusional in the extreme if they think Scotland will welcome the despised English.

They'll get a sharp lesson in bigotry, intolerance and hate crime, regardless of their political stance.

I'd encourage them to go and savour the whole experience.
Disagree. If you pick the "right" area, I'm sure one can learn such lessons. But after 5 years in the "wrong" area (Glasgow) that has not been my experience, far from it. I also found the same in (proper) North Wales despite all the anti-English stories I kept hearing.

Mind you, I also usually manage to get timely appointments at GP's Surgeries, but regularly get entertained by other's stories of battles royal with dragonian receptionists.

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Not really, it's his job to formulate the Brexit and to make parliament face up their responsibilities. That's what they're paid for and all the leavers ever wanted. We didn't ask for EUtopia because no one asked us.
This site makes it abundantly clear that many brexiteers want pure WTO first, and any subsequent trade deals formulated such that there is minimum (ideally, no) effect upon UK Sovereignty.

OTOH, other leavers wanted an exit deal along the lines of EFTA. This would be unacceptable to WTO leavers because there would still be too much EU control over our ability to trade. (In fact, HMG have previously rejected EFTA for, inter alia, this reason)

Furthermore, although The PM now has an enviable working majority, the various views within the Conservatives, coupled with the other parties' views (don't forget some of them are explicitly anti-Brexit and would be following the wishes of their electorate) could mean that Parliament facing up to their responsibilities makes the PM dance to their tune. Less likely, but still possible.

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This site makes it abundantly clear that many brexiteers want pure WTO first, and any subsequent trade deals formulated such that there is minimum (ideally, no) effect upon UK Sovereignty.

OTOH, other leavers wanted an exit deal along the lines of EFTA. This would be unacceptable to WTO leavers because there would still be too much EU control over our ability to trade. (In fact, HMG have previously rejected EFTA for, inter alia, this reason)

Furthermore, although The PM now has an enviable working majority, the various views within the Conservatives, coupled with the other parties' views (don't forget some of them are explicitly anti-Brexit and would be following the wishes of their electorate) could mean that Parliament facing up to their responsibilities makes the PM dance to their tune. Less likely, but still possible.

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I disagree with that assessment, but I will not reprise my arguments here, you should know them. And we can ditch the argument about sovereignty if we understand that Parliament gave it away in 1973, but the reclamation of our Sovereignty in this sense, is essential for what follows, but it does underline the crassness of the Parliamentary argument and it’s hijacking of Governmental prerogatives.

The arguments about the cost involved in extra Customs work is exposed for what it is, given the inbuilt profits of trade. It is for the elected Government to determine what is in our best interests. What I have argued is that this WA has been forced on us by virtue of the Stupidity of the Labour Goverments simplistic thinking with Lisbon and we should NEVER allow ourselves to be put in this position again.
moreover to be in compliance with WTO rules we must have a return of an independent Customs Service and I have written to my MP demanding he raise that matter at the earliest opportunity. He has agreed to do this, not least because it will relieve the Police of duties they are not geared to. Police headsets should learn they cannot do everything.
 

Truxx

LE
This site makes it abundantly clear that many brexiteers want pure WTO first, and any subsequent trade deals formulated such that there is minimum (ideally, no) effect upon UK Sovereignty.

OTOH, other leavers wanted an exit deal along the lines of EFTA. This would be unacceptable to WTO leavers because there would still be too much EU control over our ability to trade. (In fact, HMG have previously rejected EFTA for, inter alia, this reason)

Furthermore, although The PM now has an enviable working majority, the various views within the Conservatives, coupled with the other parties' views (don't forget some of them are explicitly anti-Brexit and would be following the wishes of their electorate) could mean that Parliament facing up to their responsibilities makes the PM dance to their tune. Less likely, but still possible.

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The bold bit

Those are, in fact, the EU rules.

As for the choices, well the irony is that were we to stay in the EU then there are an equal number of possible outcomes from the status quo to full-on convergence. At least with leaving, our elected representatives will be our elected representatives. And I hope they do make the PM dance to their (our) tune, that is, after all, the basis of what we expect from our system. The alternative is (was?) one where there was much less ability to influence outcome.
 
The bold bit

Those are, in fact, the EU rules.
I understood that was the default situation if no other exit deal was in place. The exit deal, AFAIUI, sets out the framework for leaving and there is, again AFAIA, nothing to say that deals may not be in place at exit. I think, although I don't know, that this was the position with Greenland when it withdrew in 1985.

As for the choices, well the irony is that were we to stay in the EU then there are an equal number of possible outcomes from the status quo to full-on convergence.
Yes. As I've said on many occasions, my problem with leaving wasn't with the possibility of leaving it was with jumping without a wargamed Plan A and Plan B, and not still not having tried some of those other EU options first. The threat of leaving given the EU Referendum might have given us a stronger hand to play from within the EU.

At least with leaving, our elected representatives will be our elected representatives.
We've had our elected MEPs and a member on the European Commission. [/quote]

And I hope they do make the PM dance to their (our) tune, that is, after all, the basis of what we expect from our system. The alternative is (was?) one where there was much less ability to influence outcome.
Indeed, but the original case by Miller was not well received by many when it forced the PM May to listen to the House. Miller definitely wasn't well received when the SC determined that PMBJ had not taken into account Parliament's potential wishes by proroguing for so long at that particular time. FWIW, I agree with both decisions because IMO Parliament should hold HMG to account (as should the judiciary for legal and constitutional reasons).
 

Brotherton Lad

LE
Kit Reviewer
Oh god, now your mate Grieve and the rest of the wets have been replaced and you now know that we ARE going to leave you have started a new desperate argument.
You must be the only person who thinks Boris isn’t right of centre.
Just face it, you lost the referendum you lost the arguments and the election. The remainers blocking everything have finally been put in their place and we as a country are moving forward.
Except it and stop this drivel.
Which of the various versions of Brexit is your favourite and do you think it can be negotiated by the end of next year?
 
Mongs are again under the false impression that they have won something... Celebrating for a dishonest clown and his absurd promises as if they can be delivered. They are going to feel very sick indeed when reality floats to the surface.
You should go for a short walking holiday and do an electronic de-tox. You appear to have got yourself into a flaming tailspin. It hasn't gone your way and you need to move on. Stop poisoning your brain, it will not be to your benefit in the long run.

The 5 stages of grief:
Denial (Where you were last week)
Anger (Where you are now)
Depression (Where you should avoid if you can)
Bargaining (An inevitable step)
Acceptance (The logical destination).
 

Truxx

LE
I understood that was the default situation if no other exit deal was in place. The exit deal, AFAIUI, sets out the framework for leaving and there is, again AFAIA, nothing to say that deals may not be in place at exit. I think, although I don't know, that this was the position with Greenland when it withdrew in 1985.
Nope

The "deal" is simply the admin order and invoice for leaving, and in fact is a popular misnomer for the Withdrawal Agreement. The Political declaration which forms part of the WA is supposed to start to frame the trade agreement debate, but it is non binding.

There is and will be no formal deal talked about or agreed until we have left and are, in EU parlance, a Third Country.

 

Brotherton Lad

LE
Kit Reviewer
Brexit (the treaties no longer apply) or the subsequent trade arrangements?
The treaties no longer applying is the easy bit. The follow on is your pukka opening of Pandora's Box. To close that in just 11 months means the softest of Brexits and extremely close regulatory alignment.
 

Truxx

LE
The treaties no longer applying is the easy bit. The follow on is your pukka opening of Pandora's Box. To close that in just 11 months means the softest of Brexits and extremely close regulatory alignment.
dontgiveashitdotcom as long as the first requirement (treaties) is met.

That is the bit that I voted for.

I think that it will take a long time to finalise everything. By the same token I also think that huge amounts can be achieved in months and not years (an 80/20 rule)
 
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