Brexit Phase Two - Trade

Despite knowing very little about it, I'm not in the least bit surprised by that. What I am surprised about is how easily we rolled over and gave this one up.
A classic is the policy that results in EU fishermen throwing back perfectly edible fish into the sea because they're outside of that year's quote. Far better to land the fish and reduce the other quotas accordingly.

Catch 10 tonnes of endangered species X, have quota of less endangered species Y reduced by 100 tonnes. You've then given fishermen a reason to be more discerning in their methods while not throwing back perfectly edible fish into the sea. (Over simplistic - but you'll get the idea).

I'm not holding my breath. The history of British Government negotiation with the EU tends to suggest that fishing rights is considered a pawn that they will very willingly sacrifice for some concession that they value more. Regardless of any promises made by NE Scottish Tories.
As long as there's a transition period of (say 3 years), I'd be comfortable with that. Ultimately, i'd like to see full control of our waters, but assorted French and Spanish fishermen will need time to find new fishing grounds. (Which means they'll over-fish Irish waters).

Meanwhile.

Overfishing Remains Biggest Threat to Mediterranean, Study Confirms – National Geographic Blog
Overfishing is still the most important threat to Mediterranean underwater ecosystems, “more than pollution, invasive species, or climate change”, says Enric Sala, one of the authors of the most comprehensive study made of the sea, published this week in the science journal PLoS ONE.
The EU has taken decisive action - it's set up a study group.

Putting an end to overfishing in the Mediterranean - Fisheries - European Commission
How can we halt this decline and ensure a future for our fish and for the fishermen who rely on them to make a living? A high-level seminar in Catania, Sicily, today and tomorrow, addresses this question and launches a wider reflection process that should trigger decisive action
The technical term for that is fiddling while Rome is burning.

Wordsmith
 

exbleep

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So @Baglock (site penis of the year) are you saying we never agreed to eu citizens rights being kept intact?
You're changing the argument. UK did agree on EU citizens rights AFTER UK left the EU but was saying, until recently, they would not be kept in force during a transition period.
Jan 31 2018
Theresa May has sparked a new clash with Brussels by saying that EU citizens who arrive during the post-Brexit transition period must not have the same rights as those who came before.
The prime minister’s remarks set her on course for a major skirmish with officials in Brussels, who have offered a “status quo” transition period until December 2020, including free movement and citizens’ rights for those who settle in the UK during that period.

Feb 14 2018
The EU wants nationals from the bloc to be able to come to the UK during the two-year implementation period after Britain has officially left, and for them to be allowed to stay following the transition phase.
But Mrs May believes only EU citizens who have arrived before we quit in March 2019 should be allowed to enjoy the privilege.
She said: “What we are doing now is doing the job that the British people asked the Government to do, which is of course to deliver on Brexit.


And loads of other quotes from various sources.
 
A classic is the policy that results in EU fishermen throwing back perfectly edible fish into the sea because they're outside of that year's quote. Far better to land the fish and reduce the other quotas accordingly.

Catch 10 tonnes of endangered species X, have quota of less endangered species Y reduced by 100 tonnes. You've then given fishermen a reason to be more discerning in their methods while not throwing back perfectly edible fish into the sea. (Over simplistic - but you'll get the idea).
I agree. It's ludicrous. Now we don't even have a lobby voice.


As long as there's a transition period of (say 3 years), I'd be comfortable with that. Ultimately, i'd like to see full control of our waters, but assorted French and Spanish fishermen will need time to find new fishing grounds. (Which means they'll over-fish Irish waters).
Except that there is only one reason why the British Government couldn't control access to British fisheries during a transition period, allowing access to French, Spanish and other assorted EU fisherman access in a staged withdrawal while they find new fishing grounds.
The reason is, that it's an easy pawn for the British Government to play in the negotiations, being simultaneously valuable to the EU and affecting a tiny proportion of the electorate in the UK.
 

exbleep

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I put in an analysis of my reasoning, liked to my sources of information

Feel free to respond with a similar reasoned analysis. For example, feel free to put in a detailed analysis (with sources) of how the UK has caved in in the negotiations.

Wordsmith
I was alluding more to your "coming recession", "euro failing", "EU collapsing", UK becoming a "low tax/low regulation regime" etc. as more in line with your wishful thinking.
 
Thats what we’re going to do. Bring back manufacturing industry. (That wouldnt be the stuff which was privatised, sold, asset stripped and demolished) you do know why they called it ‘the Black Country‘ and it wasn’t down to the colour of the next door neighbour.

Those who lost out in the fishing industry, tough. That’ll continue to go. Unless you like
weird fish.

Wind power, well we aren’t going to run out of wind. But oil and gas we had decades of that. What did we do with it, we subsidised the welfare state to look after those dumped by lost industries. It’s declining too, unless we have new cost effective methods of extracting it.
Which wouldn’t surprise me at all. Look at what the Norwegians did with their oil and gas. And look what we could have done with it.
wouldn't disagree with any of that. But then the electorate had nought to do with it. In the Phrase of so Many MP's ( wheeltappers) the electorate elect us to make decisions. That's what we're paid for. Now bring on t'Beer and Butties at no 10.
 
I agree. It's ludicrous. Now we don't even have a lobby voice.
If we ultimately get back control over our own fishing waters, we don't need a lobby voice - we will control them.

It's why Iceland dropped its request to join the EU. They don't want their waters raped by EU trawlers.

Iceland fishing trade 'better off out'
Iceland's fishing minister has said the country would "never join the European Union" because the country is thriving outside. The country applied to join the EU in 2009, but dropped the application last year.

A key factor, said Gunnar Bragi Sveinsson, was the desire to retain control over fishing grounds.
Who'd have thunk it - a country thriving outside of the EU....

Except that there is only one reason why the British Government couldn't control access to British fisheries during a transition period, allowing access to French, Spanish and other assorted EU fisherman access in a staged withdrawal while they find new fishing grounds.
Ultimately, we may need to ban foreign trawlers. The North Sea has been heavily over-fished and it needs a breathing space to recover. One simple way to do that is Marine Protected Areas.

Marine Protected Areas | The Wildlife Trusts
Marine Protected Areas (MPAs) are places at sea where human activities such as fishing are restricted. They are a tried and tested means of conserving habitats and wildlife at sea and there are many around the world.
Basically the idea is to permanently stop fishing in designated areas. Fish then grow to maturity in those areas and then spill over into areas that can be legally fished. Its a well proven method:
MPAs don’t just protect wildlife. They can have an influence beyond their boundaries, as growing wildlife populations spill out into the surrounding (non-protected) sea. In the UK there is a well-researched example of this at Lundy in the Bristol Channel where lobster in a ‘no-take’ zone were growing to be larger than those in the surrounding fished area as they were protected from fishing. Eventually the lobsters in the surrounding fished area became larger as they spread out from the area excluded to fishing.
Policing those areas can be done simply and cheaply. Simply dump BFO structures of steel and concrete in a grid in the area. Illegally fishing trawlers will then rip their nets to pieces, while legally fishing trawlers (i.e. avoiding the area) will not be affected.

Wordsmith
 
You certainly have the bit below wrong.
Disregarding Macron and his recent statements the Germans were the first to suggest a multi speed Europe and it's been a reality since union anyway. Merkel was pushing for greater integration of the core nations in 2012.
ISTR from memory that two speed Europe was at the core of why we didn't join the Euro in the Naughties and was possibly mentioned in the nineties as the Euro was postulated, simply because at the time Greece, Italy in particular could not qualify for the Euro proposal. It's not new.
 
I was alluding more to your "coming recession", "euro failing", "EU collapsing", UK becoming a "low tax/low regulation regime" etc. as more in line with your wishful thinking.
  • The coming recession is inevitable - the only question is the timing.
  • The last recession showed widespread failings in the euro. Given that unemployment, debt and the structural imbalances are higher in the eurozone than at the time of the last recession, and that it barely survived the last recession, a major failure of the euro come the next recession is a logical assumption.
  • The EU collapsing is again a logical assumption following on from eurozone problems. The next recession will see Greece default on its debts for sure. Italy (debt at 133% of GDP) is almost certainly going to go way above the 140% of GDP that generally signifies default on sovereign debt. It's difficult to see the EU surviving in its present form when the eurozone goes splat. Hundreds of millions of people across the EU are going to be royally p*ssed off with Brussels in the aftermath of that.
  • Why won't the UK become a low tax, low regulation regime? Reducing tax and regulation is the stated aim of every Tory government, while businesses (big and small) are also pressing for it.
Wordsmith
 
Has anyone noticed the most ardent Remainers are more demanding a more hardcore Brexit as ‘proof’ of Brexit than even the most hardcore UKIP voter?
No, we're just pointing out that the current government is pissing all over you and all you can do is remark how nice this unexpected spring shower is. Brexit as promised is dead; all we'll get is something that makes us poorer, albeit not as poor as we could have been. Brexiters have been conned; maybe one day you'll be strong enough to acknowledge that.
 
No, we're just pointing out that the current government is pissing all over you and all you can do is remark how nice this unexpected spring shower is. Brexit as promised is dead; all we'll get is something that makes us poorer, albeit not as poor as we could have been. Brexiters have been conned; maybe one day you'll be strong enough to acknowledge that.
The point is, it will not equate to a Labour win next time. It could however result in a damnably low turnout for all parties
 
Now you are just nit picking. If she had held off sending the art 50 letter, politically unacceptable though that was, then you would not doubt have been complaining that she put it in too late! During this 'extra' time between referendum and Art 50 letter then no doubt there would have been huge pressures from Remainiacs to have another referendum. Signing the letter put that particular bit of nonsense to bed, thankfully. Of course that did not stop the Remainiacs from continually under mining the PM in her efforts to reach an agreement with the EU. Indeed that continues to this date but Art 50 kills if off.

The whole tone of negotiation has changed and it is obvious that Barnier has been put back in to his box and is no longer calling the shots. He was obviously sent to to do a stalling act, which he did brilliantly, but now a more delicate hand is needed on the tiller. Now, ask yourself why Barnier was sent in by the EU to stall - wouldn't be anything to do with the fact that the EU were not prepared to deal with one of their own policies would it?

And yet the EU have everything they wanted of any import, and their position has not changed in any significant sense since day 1; and the UK has retreated massively from the original position set out all that time ago. A massive success, just not for the UK.

Brexit has failed as the Tories have failed to deliver; there is no conspiracy, no fifth column, just a bunch of over promoted non-entities failing miserably to understand the details of a 21st century nation state.
 
The point is, it will not equate to a Labour win next time. It could however result in a damnably low turnout for all parties
What has that got to do with the price of cheese Mr Logic ? It doesn't change a damn thing about the fact that the Tories have screwed up Brexit by failing to prepare.
 
No, we're just pointing out that the current government is pissing all over you and all you can do is remark how nice this unexpected spring shower is. Brexit as promised is dead; all we'll get is something that makes us poorer, albeit not as poor as we could have been. Brexiters have been conned; maybe one day you'll be strong enough to acknowledge that.

Like I said, I find it instructive how absolutist avd fanatical Remainers are in their view of Brexit.
Anything short of economic scorched earth and the EU parliament left a smoking ruin is trumpeted by them as ‘defeat’.
 
Or…

We don't have enough UK trawlers to access the fisheries yet and its a sensible position to keep exploiting the fisheries until such time as we do.
Surely more sensible to allow UK waters to be underfished and allow stock to replenish naturally as the UK fleet regrows? Then, with replenished stocks, we can run an economically and environmentally sustainable industry.
 
No, we're just pointing out that the current government is pissing all over you and all you can do is remark how nice this unexpected spring shower is. Brexit as promised is dead; all we'll get is something that makes us poorer, albeit not as poor as we could have been. Brexiters have been conned; maybe one day you'll be strong enough to acknowledge that.
You'll have to explain how's we'd be poorer outside the EU. Iceland Ian doing rather well as are country's like Canada, Korea etc etc
 

skid2

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I await with interest the Tele and Express spin on this. I expect the trade deals bit to be in bold with exclamation marks and Fox to deliver as much as he already has....These DM readers aren't in the least bit chuffed.
View attachment 327063

There’s no pleasing most brexiters. It’s about time they showed a bit of backbone and patriotism. Supporting what their government and the chaps in the negotiation team are doing on our behalf.
 
Surely more sensible to allow UK waters to be underfished and allow stock to replenish naturally as the UK fleet regrows? Then, with replenished stocks, we can run an economically and environmentally sustainable industry.

Well…

We could induce foreign fishing boats to register in the UK. I'm sure the Dutch and Danes facing fishmaggedon may be receptive.

Its the Spanish we need to run off our fish stocks.
 
What has that got to do with the price of cheese Mr Logic ? It doesn't change a damn thing about the fact that the Tories have screwed up Brexit by failing to prepare.
You can be a fool at times. An outright failure could mean the end of Westminster as we know it. If the electorate think it's a sell out it could weaken any party of a national government. Now we've tried to get the EU to change from within and failed. Macron could also fail. We know that Lisbon is smoke and mirrors at best and when you talk of the EU as if it's an entity it's an absolute failure. So what your saying is that we have no alternative to a failure whether we like it or not. Well look, ultimately it's in the customers pocket and we're all customers. TheTories have not Screwed up Brexit, Labour were quite capable of initiating that through Lisbon. The Brexit we get will be what we get and right at this moment in time Socialism ain't looking too great.
 

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