Brexit Phase Two - Trade

skid2

LE
Book Reviewer
That disgraced Liam Fox is certainly doing a great job building up brexiteers confidence and ruining remainers day, with how things are going future trade wise.
He certainly straightened Andrew Marr out on the way forward.
 
The government isn't conducting negotiations with Europe.

It's been negotiating with the conservative parliamentary party to the detriment of the country.

Taking nearly 2 years to decide in the vaguest terms what future relationship the government wants with Europe is indefensible in this time sensitive context.

The government has put party before country the whole time and I for one would be happy to see it fall
What makes you think that the result of another General Election would be any different?
Seems that the Tories have never really moved from 40% in the polls. Thats before Labour piss off all their Leave voters.
 
What makes you think that the result of another General Election would be any different?
Seems that the Tories have never really moved from 40% in the polls. Thats before Labour piss off all their Leave voters.
It's a delicate balance to be sure.

Depends whether labour voters who voted leave because they've been left behind have realised that brexit means getting further left behind.
 
the idea the UK will be closed to aviation for a decade is febrile fantasy.
Sure, the whole worlds air transportation network collapses after next march.
Then it is a "fantasy" the senior CAA people are saying. SO who have you got who is *AUTHORATIVE* in this field who says otherwise. Certainly not anyone in the Aviation regulation world. (CAA, FAA, RAeS etc) no one who knows what they are talking about will tell you any different.

There re a lot of Brexit Loons peddling fantasy's based on nothing that it will all be OK.....

There will NOT be a total collapse of air transportation after brexit. Business and money will find a way. They will just fly to Dublin, Paris and Amsterdam instead of UK airports.

Of course a lot of UKPLC are looking to move to Ireland, Germany, France etc, anyway particularly the Banking, Pharmaceutical and high-tech industries.

Interestingly France and Germany are currently making their immigration for high skilled people very easy whilst the UK is currently moving inthe opposite direction. this is why several high tech companies have moved already. Not conjecture or "we will see" but actually happened.

Some companies are talking up Brexit publicly to steady the share price and the work force whilst the load the lifeboats.
 
The government isn't conducting negotiations with Europe.

It's been negotiating with the conservative parliamentary party to the detriment of the country.

Taking nearly 2 years to decide in the vaguest terms what future relationship the government wants with Europe is indefensible in this time sensitive context.

The government has put party before country the whole time and I for one would be happy to see it fall

The problem is if the current government falls what would replace it?

Jeremy Corbyn promising £60 minimum wage, rebuilding UK Manufacturing, nationalising everything, taxing any private company and bank to within an inch of it's life and Unicorns for all...

As we have seen with the Brexit Referendum that the below average intelligence British Public will vote for any old rable rousing fantasy i.e. Brexit. so are likely to elect Jeremy. His naive policies appeal to may of the less well informed and the idealistic young. (who said at 20 if you have a soul you should be Labour but by 30 if you have a brain you should be Tory?)

The JC marxist/Momentum group are hell bent on gaining power reguardless of the effect on the country. Just like the Brexit Loons in the Tory party.

A plague on both their houses.

What is really needed is a Strong and Stable [Tory] government to handle the next 5 years whether we Brexit or not. You can't do the sort of negotiation the UK needs to do (whether we do Brexit or end up staying in) with Parliament (both sides) in the state it is in.

The problem is JC's bunch will do what ever is needed to gain power. Say anything do anything. Make any promises. It is quite likely that we will have a Corbyn government next.... for about 4 weeks untill John McDonald takes over. And we thought Mandy was evil.....
 
The point has been made endlessly and at the highest level that the talk of so called "trade deals" to date have been pure fantasy and illusions
I quite agree- more smoke and mirrors by those who pretend to make them. Plain fact is If I want to buy something from china or Russia, there is nothing preventing me other than the relevant duties and the ability to pay and the requirement for it to be legal.
 
I quite agree- more smoke and mirrors by those who pretend to make them. Plain fact is If I want to buy something from china or Russia, there is nothing preventing me other than the relevant duties and the ability to pay and the requirement for it to be legal.
Not quite true... However The relevant duties, the paperwork, etc etc make a lot of difference. especially where the tariff is 250% (as slapped on by our "friend" the USA.

As pointed out by those of us who do work in companies who import the single market saves a huge amount of costs compared from importing from anywhere else.

A couple of years ago I paused by reception as a UPS chap turned up for a signature. It was something that came in from the states. There was a customs admin charge on it (which we had paid) He commented they have a warehouse of stuff in limbo that people had ordered from the USA and then been stunned at the HMRC (and carriers admin) charges. Apparently a lot of people don't pay as their "bargain" suddenly becomes not worth paying the import duties on. So the goods get stuck in limbo. I forgot how they deal with them inthe end.

This will only get worse as the value off the pound falls post Brexit. In any case what are these trade deals were are going to do?

The EU is the number 2 economy in the world. The UK is 7th heading 10th and no one is going to do a trade deal with the UK untill after they see the UK's deal with the EU. This is because they won't want to jeopardise their deal with the number 2 economy inthe world.

Then with the UK (depending what NI and Scotland do) over a barrel they will do a deal that is good for them....

Where is the win in this?

Al I am seeing is fantasies that don't stand up to the slightest scrutiny along with "wait and see" and "we will negotiate" At best Brexit seems to be it is not as bad as the worse suggestions of Project Fear AKA Reality.

What does the UK actually gain from Brexit in reality?
Sovereignty don't pay the bills it's a; about the economy.
 

skid2

LE
Book Reviewer
The problem is if the current government falls what would replace it?

Jeremy Corbyn promising £60 minimum wage, rebuilding UK Manufacturing, nationalising everything, taxing any private company and bank to within an inch of it's life and Unicorns for all...

As we have seen with the Brexit Referendum that the below average intelligence British Public will vote for any old rable rousing fantasy i.e. Brexit. so are likely to elect Jeremy. His naive policies appeal to may of the less well informed and the idealistic young. (who said at 20 if you have a soul you should be Labour but by 30 if you have a brain you should be Tory?)

The JC marxist/Momentum group are hell bent on gaining power reguardless of the effect on the country. Just like the Brexit Loons in the Tory party.

A plague on both their houses.

What is really needed is a Strong and Stable [Tory] government to handle the next 5 years whether we Brexit or not. You can't do the sort of negotiation the UK needs to do (whether we do Brexit or end up staying in) with Parliament (both sides) in the state it is in.

The problem is JC's bunch will do what ever is needed to gain power. Say anything do anything. Make any promises. It is quite likely that we will have a Corbyn government next.... for about 4 weeks untill John McDonald takes over. And we thought Mandy was evil.....

That’s Corbyn unicorns as opposed to Brexit unicorns,still unicorns.
He’s not mentioned anything about taxing private companies or banks to within an inch of their lives..
in fact McDonnells nationalisation would be a zero sum cost (he says)

The less well informed, is that a Sunday morning way of saying they’re stupid. (Along with rabble rousing policies, would they specifically appeal to ‘rabble’)

You aren’t getting a strong and stable conservative government. Even the dream team of Bo Mogg, although great entertainment value doesn’t seem to have broad appeal. Bo Mogg on top of Austerity and brexit might even destroy the party.

I agree, McDonnell and Milne are the ones to watch. Corbyn is just a cuddly figurehead.
But people were led by the nose to this. Demonisation of the poor, the disabled, funny looking foreigners and the wrong sort of migrants.

The Sun, Mail and Express all given the nod to soften up the public. And this is what you end up with. There’s something nasty and small minded about it. Not good and not British.
Who knows how it’ll pan out. But I expect an election sooner rather than later, we’ll see what happens then.
 
Who knows how it’ll pan out. But I expect an election sooner rather than later, we’ll see what happens then.
I agree but the last thing the UK needs is another election in the middle of this mess.
Brexit Unicorns
Corbin Unicorns
Diane Abbott
Mogg
Lots of spin and (carefully crafted and well organised) spontaneous social media viral posts.

It's going to drown out any sensible or pragmatic discussion. Mainly because the sensible and pragmatic answers to getting out of this mess are going to be painful. At least inthe short term.
 
Then it is a "fantasy" the senior CAA people are saying.

Well they need to calm down and go rest in a dark room for a bit.
Hysterical outbursts are not facts.

Most of the noise is coming from the Euros… whats that? The French and Germans in particular see an opportunity to be difficult and squeeze the successful and cheap UK short haul carriers out of struggling EU domestic carriers turf? Shirley not!

We can have an open skies agreement as the EU has with the US.

We DO NOT have to be in EASA for the world to keep turning.

Deals can be done in short order, but guess what? The EU, that bastion of European protectionism, and protector of a whole slew of crap airlines and European aerospace firms dependent on state and EU largesse, is the person of colour in this particular woodpile.

Who'd have thought it? The issue is as always the EU trying to keep a closed market and shouting out competition.
 
I've just watched Starmer on AM, Andrew Marr basically stated that it's primarily a tactical move to force a vote of no confidence against PMTM if JC does make such a commitment.

I agree that HoC should debate etc, however to attempt to topple a Government during these extremely challenging Brexit times is both point scoring, ignorance and idiocy.




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(Snip)

The government has put party before country the whole time and I for one would be happy to see it fall
Which is exactly what Labour is doing as well. Moral vacuums the lot of them.


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I've just watched Starmer on AM, Andrew Marr basically stated that it's primarily a tactical move to force a vote of no confidence against PMTM if JC does make such a commitment.

I agree that HoC should debate etc, however to attempt to topple a Government during these extremely challenging Brexit times is both point scoring, ignorance and idiocy.




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The government isn't conducting negotiations with Europe.

It's been negotiating with the conservative parliamentary party to the detriment of the country.

Taking nearly 2 years to decide in the vaguest terms what future relationship the government wants with Europe is indefensible in this time sensitive context.

The government has put party before country the whole time and I for one would be happy to see it fall
Detrimental to the country?

Because you believe everything the left wing MSM & the EU want you to believe perhaps.

The timeframe is set, both parties are accountable and the U.K.-EU future relationship on vaguest terms??

For heavens sake it’s ongoing, the U.K. IS leaving and meanwhile HMG has the toughest peacetime challenge dealing with the EU (and beyond) & the Labour Party are in such a basket case turmoil they’re an shocking embarrassment.

It’s Sunday, I’m off to enjoy watching the closing ceremony....


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Well they need to calm down and go rest in a dark room for a bit.
Hysterical outbursts are not facts.
Well the CAA, FAA, RAeS and EASA (none of which are polotical but legal regulators) have all made formal statements not hysterical outbursts. You onthe other hand are making outbursts with nothing to back it up.

Most of the noise is coming from the Euros…
Not, it's coming from the CAA, FAA and RAeS none of which are EU

We can have an open skies agreement as the EU has with the US.
Thereby PROVING you have not the first idea what you are talking about. YEs we can have an open skys agreement with the FAA... all the CAA needs to do is come up to speed under international Civil Aviation Requirements. IF the UK invests millions and adds in 1500 new people this month we can be up and running by April the 1st 2023 at the best. Untill then we can't fly in or out of the US airspace....

That was the "hysterical" formal statement from the US FAA and the UK CAA. (and the comments from the RAeS) nothing to do with the EU.

We DO NOT have to be in EASA for the world to keep turning.
Correct. no one has ever said we do. I have said that often... we just need to have our own UK Civil Aviation Regulator. The problem is it will take us an absolute minimum of 5 years to come up to speed with one. (inside the CAA they are saying 10 years) In the interim no one will be able to run civil flights into or out of the UK.

That is a matter of legal fact.

Deals can be done in short order, but guess what? The EU, that bastion of European protectionism, and protector of a whole slew of crap airlines and European aerospace firms dependent on state and EU largesse, is the person of colour in this particular woodpile.
Nothing to do with the EU.... Please stop being so stupid. This is international aviation law and safety regulations. The FAA and CAA are the ones saying this. EASA is saying you can do what you want to do when even you like. However if you want people to fly into your airspace to land your have to have a Regulation authority that operates at the required standards. This require certified people, working in a proper system etc etc. This is internationally agreed. IT will take at least 5 years for people to get to the required standards. There are no short cuts on this.


Who'd have thought it? The issue is as always the EU trying to keep a closed market and shouting out competition.
NOTHING TO DO WITH THE EU. IT IS INTERNATIONAL AVIATION (safety) REGULATIONS.
The EU is happy for us to do our own thing. IF it fits in with international aviation regulations they are happy. the UK needs a MINIMUM of 5 years to do that (plus a LOT of investment ad people we haven't got)
 
If any of those using this reason had voiced misgivings about the current government's attempts to usurp the sovereignty of parliament I might just believe them. They didn't did they?
Probably because the current government isn't usurping anything, except perhaps the country's patience.

The Article 50 process is owned by the EU and the UK process which triggered it was defined exclusively by a pro-Remain government with the full endorsement of Parliament. I'm sure with hindsight that all those Remain MPs now wish they had made provision for a further review but, when they had the chance, they decided not to do so and now they're stuck with the consequences of that choice.

Like it or not, the current process is a Remain creation, which is rather amusing.
 
Probably because the current government isn't usurping anything, except perhaps the country's patience.

The Article 50 process is owned by the EU and the UK process which triggered it was defined exclusively by a pro-Remain government with the full endorsement of Parliament. I'm sure with hindsight that all those Remain MPs now wish they had made provision for a further review but, when they had the chance, they decided not to do so and now they're stuck with the consequences of that choice.

Like it or not, the current process is a Remain creation, which is rather amusing.
You appear somewhat confused. The EU doesn't have any say on the Great Repeal Bill...
 
Well the CAA, FAA, RAeS and EASA (none of which are polotical but legal regulators) have all made formal statements not hysterical outbursts. You onthe other hand are making outbursts with nothing to back it up.

Not, it's coming from the CAA, FAA and RAeS none of which are EU



Thereby PROVING you have not the first idea what you are talking about. YEs we can have an open skys agreement with the FAA... all the CAA needs to do is come up to speed under international Civil Aviation Requirements. IF the UK invests millions and adds in 1500 new people this month we can be up and running by April the 1st 2023 at the best. Untill then we can't fly in or out of the US airspace....

That was the "hysterical" formal statement from the US FAA and the UK CAA. (and the comments from the RAeS) nothing to do with the EU.



Correct. no one has ever said we do. I have said that often... we just need to have our own UK Civil Aviation Regulator. The problem is it will take us an absolute minimum of 5 years to come up to speed with one. (inside the CAA they are saying 10 years) In the interim no one will be able to run civil flights into or out of the UK.

That is a matter of legal fact.



Nothing to do with the EU.... Please stop being so stupid. This is international aviation law and safety regulations. The FAA and CAA are the ones saying this. EASA is saying you can do what you want to do when even you like. However if you want people to fly into your airspace to land your have to have a Regulation authority that operates at the required standards. This require certified people, working in a proper system etc etc. This is internationally agreed. IT will take at least 5 years for people to get to the required standards. There are no short cuts on this.




NOTHING TO DO WITH THE EU. IT IS INTERNATIONAL AVIATION (safety) REGULATIONS.
The EU is happy for us to do our own thing. IF it fits in with international aviation regulations they are happy. the UK needs a MINIMUM of 5 years to do that (plus a LOT of investment ad people we haven't got)

I seem to recall lots of experts also told us the economy would crash, unemployment soar - and war and pestilence would strike us down if we voted LEAVE.

Well…

Here we still are - listening to experts predicting BREXmageddon.
 
I seem to recall lots of experts also told us the economy would crash, unemployment soar - and war and pestilence would strike us down if we voted LEAVE.
Well…
Here we still are - listening to experts predicting BREXmageddon.
Hello stupid.

The experts you cite were making predictions. The CAA, RAeS, FAA etc are making statements of legal fact. There is a slight difference,

The only variable is how long it will take to set up the local CAA infrastructure and people to the required legal standards. From their working experience. And they are the only people who have this are that it would take a minimum of 5 years.... being a Chartered Engineer myself I know there are things like requirements to have a minimum of X years appropreate fully mentored and signed off experience of X, y and Z to to the appropriate standards etc.

Now you could change that from X years to say half that. However the Rest of the World (not the EU) will not accept that. the US FAA certainly won't The International Civil Aviation Rules are not negotiable in that way.

So you have e legal, safety and engineering rules, none of this is political or negotiable. Also the bits that are negotiable we don't have a leg to stand on. It is not a case of the UK can do what it likes... that went with the British Empire. For International Aviation if we step out of EASA according to a senior CAA person I spoke to "the UK has as much clout as Uganda" I have no idea why Uganda but there it is.

Somethings can't be fudged. That is why everyone who knows anything about Civil Aviation (particularly all the UK based airlines) there is no plan B other than staying in EASA which required membership pf the ECJ.

The UK has no leverage in any of this.

So what do you suggest that the people who know what they are talking about haven't thought of. You can cite the relevant legal statutes.
 

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