Brexit Phase Two - Trade

What’s this. Those beastly Europeans not letting us have our cake and eating it for the 17th time of asking. Well. I’m, I’m outraged.
That’s what I am.

As for TM not ‘allowing rigid institutional restrictions or deep seated ideology to inhibit our co operation’. (Germany this week)


While in the HO, 2013. ‘ the continuing uk would not be in a position to protect Scottish interests as it does presently.

Scotland would be a separate state . It couldn’t share the UKs Sy ot to disag g Int agencies for reasons of sovereignty and democratic accountability’.
.
Sorry skid but simply mixing up issues won't work. The Indy ref was restricted to Scotland The rest of Britain had no say in the matter. The SNP simply would not accept that they would have to rejoin as a new entity. It was also perfectly true that if Indy ref had won the UK which would then exist would have no say in Scottish interests. Instead of venting your spleen on TM why not vent it on Juncker for imposing preconditions which we then accepted. Does Ireland share any part of our systems as an independent state, other than what's agreed.
 
Some people use umbrellas to shade themselves from the glorious warm and comforting sun. :cool:
Brexit is a storm that is already causing damage and the worst has yet to come.
Update on reality for deluded mongs who think that they know better than Bloomberg.

Vote Again on Brexit

The U.K.'s voters should get a chance to change their minds.

Vote Again on Brexit

"Almost two years after the U.K. voted to quit the European Union, and barely more than a year before the actual exit is scheduled to happen, an all but leaderless Britain is fumbling its way to disaster."

The mindless Turkeys who voted for Xmas are in denial.
 
19F31F8C-8044-45BB-8C92-AFE420009CC3.jpeg
Brexit is a storm that is already causing damage and the worst has yet to come.
Update on reality for deluded mongs who think that they know better than Bloomberg.

Vote Again on Brexit

The U.K.'s voters should get a chance to change their minds.

Vote Again on Brexit

"Almost two years after the U.K. voted to quit the European Union, and barely more than a year before the actual exit is scheduled to happen, an all but leaderless Britain is fumbling its way to disaster."

The mindless Turkeys who voted for Xmas are in denial.

There must be Brexit! God wills it!
 
Last edited:

Auld-Yin

ADC
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Reviews Editor
Brexit is a storm that is already causing damage and the worst has yet to come.
Update on reality for deluded mongs who think that they know better than Bloomberg.

Vote Again on Brexit

The U.K.'s voters should get a chance to change their minds.

Vote Again on Brexit

"Almost two years after the U.K. voted to quit the European Union, and barely more than a year before the actual exit is scheduled to happen, an all but leaderless Britain is fumbling its way to disaster."

The mindless Turkeys who voted for Xmas are in denial.
You've repeatedly stated that the electorate can't be trusted to vote the right way in a referendum.

What changes that?
 
Brexit is a storm that is already causing damage and the worst has yet to come.
Update on reality for deluded mongs who think that they know better than Bloomberg.

Vote Again on Brexit

The U.K.'s voters should get a chance to change their minds.

Vote Again on Brexit

"Almost two years after the U.K. voted to quit the European Union, and barely more than a year before the actual exit is scheduled to happen, an all but leaderless Britain is fumbling its way to disaster."

The mindless Turkeys who voted for Xmas are in denial.
If the first referendum was stupid why should a second one be deemed any less stupid?

If a second one got a result that you wanted, why should that result stand and not the first result which somebody else wanted?

What reason is there to suppose that the result would be any different? Polls can't be relied on that say what the result might be, they certainly weren't for the first one.

Higgsy, you're coming across as somebody who only accepts democracy when a result of it is in his favour.

Unprincipled, I think is the word.
 

skid2

LE
Book Reviewer
If the first referendum was stupid why should a second one be deemed any less stupid?

If a second one got a result that you wanted, why should that result stand and not the first result which somebody else wanted?

What reason is there to suppose that the result would be any different? Polls can't be relied on that say what the result might be, they certainly weren't for the first one.

Higgsy, you're coming across as somebody who only accepts democracy when a result of it is in his favour.

Unprincipled, I think is the word.
The first one was stupid and certainly not thought through. There’s no reason to suspect a second one will be any better, whatever the result.
The questions may well be somewhat different.
 
The first one was stupid and certainly not thought through. There’s no reason to suspect a second one will be any better, whatever the result.
The questions may well be somewhat different.
A referendum is an act of direct democracy; democracy at its purest.

I suggest that the main reason for representative democracy is that everybody can't have an input at the same time. Meetings, debates, votes etc are constrained by time and numbers. At least that used to be the case.

Nowadays however, due to technology, we can have true democracy, with everybody having an input, if we so desire.

The level of intelligence/stupidity of the electorate is irrelevant. The electorate is the electorate and universal suffrage desirable. The alternative is to have self-selected elites decide on policy; the route to tyranny.

If an electorate is 100% stupid, they're still entitled, by numerical superiority, to self-determination.
 
The level of intelligence/stupidity of the electorate is irrelevant. The electorate is the electorate and universal suffrage desirable. The alternative is to have self-selected elites decide on policy; the route to tyranny..
I've long argued that referendums are useful, but there should be a basic qualifying questionnaire to show the voters has a grip of the issues. For the previous referendum, it could have been as simple as:
  • How many states are currently in the EU?
  • Is the UK a member of the euro?
  • And so on,
Extremely basic questions to verify that the voters at least understands the general issue.

wordsmith
 
I've long argued that referendums are useful, but there should be a basic qualifying questionnaire to show the voters has a grip of the issues. For the previous referendum, it could have been as simple as:
  • How many states are currently in the EU?
  • Is the UK a member of the euro?
  • And so on,
Extremely basic questions to verify that the voters at least understands the general issue.

wordsmith
I agree on that, Wordsmith, though I wonder how many "Remainers" would place wrong answers, claim to be for Brexit and then watch as the clusterthing kicks in. I do think summat similar occurred when all those £3 Tories voted for JC. Still, it'll either come out in the wash or be the same in a hundred years. :cool:
 
I see the debates and votes in the Commons have been postponed. For up to 2 months according to The Times.

The country is rapidly running out of time and, despite that urgency, avoiding the inevitable political crisis appears to be the more important priority.
 

Auld-Yin

ADC
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Reviews Editor
I see the debates and votes in the Commons have been postponed. For up to 2 months according to The Times.

The country is rapidly running out of time and, despite that urgency, avoiding the inevitable political crisis appears to be the more important priority.
Why don't the opposition force a vote? They've done it before!

Is it because basically they are on the same road as the government and don't particularly want any votes?
 
Why don't the opposition force a vote? They've done it before!

Is it because basically they are on the same road as the government and don't particularly want any votes?
I think they will in due course. At the moment Labour can afford to leave HMG to twist in its self-generated wind.

Of course, Labour has its own internal divisions regarding Brexit but its direction of movement appears to be increasingly in favour of a customs union. I reckon that would attract a great deal of support.
 
I've long argued that referendums are useful, but there should be a basic qualifying questionnaire to show the voters has a grip of the issues. For the previous referendum, it could have been as simple as:
  • How many states are currently in the EU?
  • Is the UK a member of the euro?
  • And so on,
Extremely basic questions to verify that the voters at least understands the general issue.

wordsmith
I disagree. Universal suffrage. Otherwise the elite will simply state that only certain people, their supporters, are able to fully comprehend the nuances etc.
 
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