Brexit Phase Two - Trade

Wordsmith

LE
Book Reviewer
Don't forget Macron.

Can France's Emmanuel Macron save Europe in 2018? - CNN
The French President wants to do away with the Europe of nations to create something much closer to a nation of Europe. He wants the EU to have its own finance minister, its own budget, its own economic governance. He believes it should have its own army and border police force. He wants a harmonized tax system and, politically, a stronger European Parliament with transnational parties and lists.
That looks horribly like a United States of Europe to me.

1) The driving force of the EU has always been the Franco-German axis. With Shultz and Marcon both pushing for further integration, we can guarantee that a strong effort will be made to move towards a USE.

2) The leaders of Europe are not dumb. They know the euro is a half finished project and that it it fails, there will be catastrophic damage to their economies. Therefore a USE is necessary self-preservation for euro members.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....

Wordsmith
 
Breixteers are easily confused. Bless.

"The forecast for tomorrow is sleet and rain"

"Why do you like sleet and rain?"
Old? It is. But the daft old buggers keep on doing it don't they?
 
Which part of the response do you judge to be inaccurate?

Of course, the UK leaving will tend to strengthen the federalists' hand. So, congratulations.
Is 300 years of HMG Foreign Policy your only reason to wish for the prevention of a USE?

Has the relationship between member states (and the UK) really remained the same in hundreds of years?

There are different reasons that some nations may have to not want to be involved, but ancient history shouldn't be the main one.
 
Brexiterosis... Right up there with all the usual disorders... avoidant, borderline, histrionic, psychosis, schizophrenia etc... These mongs should not be ridiculed. It is not their fault! Nor should they be pitied ...I know a vet who can put them down without further pain and suffering.
 

skid2

LE
Book Reviewer

skid2

LE
Book Reviewer
More news on our bright wonderful future from Bojo. The plan............

‘ Get the best economic result from that decision and do the best that we can do’
And that’s what you voted for. As if that decision wasn’t championed, supported and cheerleadered by him and his cohorts.

No, our decision. No, this is what we fought for. No, collective responsibility. No, this is what we caused.

He describes it as ‘that decision’ as if it’s got nothing to do with him. He’s just the foreign secretary doing the best for his people.
Good to see the great big world, and our friends in the commonwealth rallying round.
 

Wordsmith

LE
Book Reviewer
There are different reasons that some nations may have to not want to be involved, but ancient history shouldn't be the main one.
Although ancient history should not be ignored. The violent breakup of the Former Republic of Yugoslavia (which began in 1990) is a worst case example of what can happen if you lock people into a state or system which they do not approve.

I'm not saying a USE would go the same way, only that we should not ignore historical precedent. We should also not ignore the face that the 27 remaining states of the EU are equally as diverse as those of the former Yugoslavia - and may be as resistant to forming a 'super-state'.

Wordsmith
 
Although ancient history should not be ignored. The violent breakup of the Former Republic of Yugoslavia (which began in 1990) is a worst case example of what can happen if you lock people into a state or system which they do not approve.

I'm not saying a USE would go the same way, only that we should not ignore historical precedent. We should also not ignore the face that the 27 remaining states of the EU are equally as diverse as those of the former Yugoslavia - and may be as resistant to forming a 'super-state'.

Wordsmith
Yogoslavia wasn't made up of volunteer member states like the EU is.

Europeans are voting in favour of the EU, and providing it doesn't become a 'lock in', there's no reason it should break up in the same way as FRY.
 
I think you are suffering from the UK perspective of what you think Europeans really think.
They (working and tax-paying classes) don't want more Brussels in their lives despite the politicians telling them what they should want.
Like in Holland:-

Dutch EU no vote has worrying lessons for anti-Brexit campaign

Other referendums from other countries in Europe and earlier years are available too.

Feelings here in rural France run the same way too, jobs for the currently jobless generation of young across the EU are more of a talking point for real people at the grass roots.
The rest of the USE dream is an aspiration and the only way for the politicians to get a handle on saving the Euro and finances, a dream at best.
 

Wordsmith

LE
Book Reviewer
Yogoslavia wasn't made up of volunteer member states like the EU is.

Europeans are voting in favour of the EU, and providing it doesn't become a 'lock in', there's no reason it should break up in the same way as FRY.
That would be perfectly true were the EU openly stating their intention to move towards a federal Europe with powers devolved to Brussels. The problem comes because the progress to a USE is covert - and as such is meeting increased resistance from anti-EU parties.

If the idea's so popular, why don't the EU hold a referendum saying "do you approve of future moves to create a United States of Europe?". They won't because they know the response will be Foxtrot Oscar.

Marco has gone so far as to state the plebs don't understand what is good for them.

Macron slams rise of populism across EU - ‘Europe needs MORE integration, not less’
The French President claimed “Europe’s inability to protect people” is responsible for the rise of anti-establishment parties across the union.

And he insisted the only solution was “a more united Europe”, not more national sovereignty.

Touching on the UK’s historic decision to split from Brussels, Mr Macron bundled Brexit in with other European populist movements, which he said “feed on the fact that no one can explain things.”
Wordsmith
 
The EEC/EU exists for one simple reason, being uncouth savages, the Europeans have spent centuries killing each other in millions for silly ideas.

Meanwhile, the Britain that so many here so despise, got on with building a robust democracy and exported it to the world.

Wars for Britain have nearly always involved wading in to the continentals latest squabble and knocking heads together. We don’t need to be locked into an ‘ever closer union’ to stop us invading them, we don’t have firm for that.

The EU believes the proles vote with their hearts and can’t be trusted to vote sensibly, so their ‘solution’ is appointed technocrat experts to rule us for our own good.

That smacks rather like the rule of Kings and their advisors , and the last time someone decided that was a jolly good idea, to dismiss the proles parliament, we had a civil civil war and lopped off his head to end that silly idea.

Just because the Europeans can’t trust each other to not murder each other by the millions, that is no reason for the UK to jump in bed with them in an unelected and unaccountable superstate avd throw away 1000 years of representative democracy that has been a shining example to the world.
 
The only mainland European countries I give any merit to are Poland, Czecheslovakia and Holland. When the chips were down, those that could came here and stood with us. I would be very happy to see them given favoured nation status and their people the right to come here.
You do know that Czechoslovakia isn't a country any more don't you? Also that's a pretty one sided view of the populations of all 3 of those countries/former countries, some stood with us, some stood with the opposition. At least 25000 Dutch in the Waffen SS for a starter and there's a pretty intense discussion about the acts of a section of Polish society when it came to the holocaust at the moment too!
 
You do know that Czechoslovakia isn't a country any more don't you? Also that's a pretty one sided view of the populations of all 3 of those countries/former countries, some stood with us, some stood with the opposition. At least 25000 Dutch in the Waffen SS for a starter and there's a pretty intense discussion about the acts of a section of Polish society when it came to the holocaust at the moment too!
It's Meerkatz. His take on history seems to be slightly skewed as witness his post on the 1000 years of representative democracy the UK gave to the world and we only fought Euro people, not Africans, Indians or, indeed, ourselves in the Americas.
He's been reading the 1950s version of Janet and John make an Empire.
 
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