Brexit Phase Two - Trade

Your position is a little ambiguous, as to whether you're placing blame on the Royalists or Parliament. I always thought it was those that were unsupportive of the old establishment (ie, the Stuart Monarchy) that rose in armed rebellion in the English Civil War, but happy for you to prove me wrong.
No the Levellers were those of the people who had supported the Cromwellian cause on the basis that once the new establishment was in they would be treated "levelly". Cromwell couldn't have that as control would have passed to the people rather than to Parliament which was what the war had been about. Levellers never supported the Monarchy. The distinction is here was a sort of Socialist movement in the making that wouldn't be supported by the very people who'd promised so much. Cromwell was a Land owner as were many other leaders of the civil war. Many of the Levellers had links to Puritanism. The issue here isn't so much Royalists or Roundheads- more Parliament and it's intense distaste for "democracy". It often shouts about it, very seldom practices what it preaches. That's what the "divine right right" was all about

Incidentally that's how it worked out in America, then France, Germany ( in the 19th century) and subsequently, Russia.
Incidentally Justine Greening has just implied Parliament want redundancy. GMB "A second referendum should be held because Parliament can't do it."
 
No the Levellers were those of the people who had supported the Cromwellian cause on the basis that once the new establishment was in they would be treated "levelly".
Well aware of the Levellers (both Lilburne and Chadwick kinds), but that at least clears up where you were coming from on this.
 
We have to leave to negotiate a trade agreement i.e. we have to be a third party; that is not the issue though, but rather what happens in the interim period.
Here you and I differ. My understanding is that with the EU as an intermediary we've had signed deals 27 different nations. What the EU is saying we can't unpick those deals without them.
My issue is I think the EU can't do that-that would be interfering in national sovereign matters, which the EU says it doesn't do-then dictates to the CM what it's response should be. Essentially the EU is getting away with what leaders let them, but it should be told move away at the high port. The EU is recognised as a joint negotiating body but not as a Sovereign state
 
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I think a lot of remain MP's will vote with the Brexit side to force May out. They know they can't win the next GE in charge. Anyway, it doesn't take 158 to force her out - it takes 158 to reelect her as leader. At worst, many MP's will abstain rather than see her continue as Tory leader.

Wordsmith
Funny I had the opposite opinion, the May government will rely on labour votes to push through a soft brexit. At the end of the day, the labour proposals aren't that dissimilar to the chequers ones and after editing by the EU.
 
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Your position is a little ambiguous, as to whether you're placing blame on the Royalists or Parliament. I always thought it was those that were unsupportive of the old establishment (ie, the Stuart Monarchy) that rose in armed rebellion in the English Civil War, but happy for you to prove me wrong.
Civil wars motivate lots of anti-establishment groups, that's why usually there is a second one to resolve the differences with the winning parties.
 

Wordsmith

LE
Book Reviewer
Funny I had the opposite opinion, the May government will rely on labour votes to push through a soft brexit. At the end of the day, the labour proposals aren't that dissimilar to the chequers ones and after editing by the EU.
Can you imagine the feeling in the Tory party if 100 Tory MP's rebel and don't support May and she then gets her legislation through with Labour votes? She's sure to face a leadership challenge if she tries it.

Wordsmith
 
Yep - the accidental hard Brexit.

Which incidentally might be the UK's best chance of getting a decent deal. If we do a hard Brexit and it hurts both sides, then a deal might be cobbled together after the event.

Wordsmith
That's a big 'if', especially in the inevitable climate of mutual recriminations and suspicion that will inevitably follow a hard Brexit; the best hope for such an outcome would be that all the current principal actors - May, Merkel, Macron, Tusk, Juncker, Barnier and Verhofsadt all exit stage left some time in the early 2020s.
 
Here you and I differ. My understanding is that with the EU as an intermediary we've had signed deals 27 different nations. What the EU is saying we can't unpick those deals without them.
My issue is I think the EU can't do that-that would be interfering in national sovereign matters, which the EU says it doesn't do-then dictates to the CM what it's response should be. Essentially the EU is getting away with what leaders let them, but it should be told move away at the high port. The EU is recognised as a joint negotiating body but not as a Sovereign state
We can't unpick them full stop, any future deal will be negotiated with the EU, it isn't a sovereign state but it represents all treaty members.
 

Wordsmith

LE
Book Reviewer
Meanwhile May continues to make friends in the party.

'Tories threatened to cut funding for my seat over revolt against PM's Brexit plan'
When Andrea Jenkyns received a call from Brandon Lewis, the chairman of the Conservative Party, she knew it was unlikely to be good news. The 44-year-old Tory MP has rapidly emerged as one of the most vociferous opponents of the Prime Minister's Brexit plans and was one of the first Tory MPs to publicly call for Theresa May to go. The Telegraph has learned that on Saturday last week Mr Lewis called Ms Jenkyns and allegedly "hinted" that funding for leaflets in her marginal, Brexit-backing seat of Morley and Outwood in Yorkshire could be cut.
Great way of annoying the other MP's who oppose May's plans. Ham-fisted doesn't cover it - May is rapidly trashing what goodwill remains towards her in the party.

Wordsmith
 
The White Paper only makes sense as either a first step towards further concessions in pretending to leave or as a first step towards cancelling the whole show.
This.

While the calls for further Referendums might provide an amusing sideshow, this is really the only game in town, because:

1) There’s no time for further Referendums - you’d need to legislate and set one up and that would take us way into 2019.

2) Parliament is only sitting for one more week before breaking up for the Summer and only returns for a week in September before rising again.

It’s the Trade Bill, or you scrap the thing entirely.

Time’s nearly up. ^^
 
This.

While the calls for further Referendums might provide an amusing sideshow, this is really the only game in town, because:

1) There’s no time for further Referendums - you’d need to legislate and set one up and that would take us way into 2019.

2) Parliament is only sitting for one more week before breaking up for the Summer and only returns for a week in September before rising again.

It’s the Trade Bill, or you scrap the thing entirely.

Time’s nearly up. ^^
Or crash out...
 

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