Boris - The Prime Minister

First thoughts on PMBoris, will he make a difference?


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To be fair, better than "We have massively under-purchased"... One can only imagine Suppurating Civvie's howls of anguish if that were the case.
Even better is properly managed PPE stocks that don’t cost as much as 40% of the U.K. defence budget.
At a time where harsh defence cuts are being mooted I’m surprised folks are so sanguine about this.
 

Themanwho

LE
Book Reviewer
Even better is properly managed PPE stocks that don’t cost as much as 40% of the U.K. defence budget.
At a time where harsh defence cuts are being mooted I’m surprised folks are so sanguine about this.
If as many predict there is a resurgence in Covid infection, such a contingency will appear no only justified, but exactly the right thing to do. If no second spike occurs, those Boris haters such as yourself blessed with 20/20 hindsight will no doubt howl at the moon.
 

offog

LE
Even better is properly managed PPE stocks that don’t cost as much as 40% of the U.K. defence budget.
At a time where harsh defence cuts are being mooted I’m surprised folks are so sanguine about this.
It's a sellers market. Every man and his dog wants it before the guy next door and they want to stock pile it just in case, as the just in time policy has been drastically broken because every one wants it at the same time now.

Defence is something the public can see but not really understand and that goes for many in government (why do you need to keep vast stocks of ammo in expensive bunkers when we can order it and it is delivered next week). Granny Jones passing 6 months early is tangible and they see it. People on the floor of A&E in Italy they can get there heads round and understand defence is something that has very little interaction with them.
 

Truxx

LE
Even better is properly managed PPE stocks that don’t cost as much as 40% of the U.K. defence budget.
At a time where harsh defence cuts are being mooted I’m surprised folks are so sanguine about this.
You have never had anything meaningful to do with government procurement then?

"You need PPE you say?

And you need it in a hurry you say?"

Kerrrrrching
 
Even better is properly managed PPE stocks that don’t cost as much as 40% of the U.K. defence budget.
At a time where harsh defence cuts are being mooted I’m surprised folks are so sanguine about this.
When the next wave of covid comes, and it will, I am sure you will be jumping up and down with rage. Again.

Bad Boris, how dare he spend money rebuilding stocks of PPE :roll:
 

Yarra

Old-Salt
Even better is properly managed PPE stocks that don’t cost as much as 40% of the U.K. defence budget.
At a time where harsh defence cuts are being mooted I’m surprised folks are so sanguine about this.
I showed your posts on the matter of PPE to Mrs Yarra. She has had a good old chuckle at your 'rates of PPE usage in the NHS'.

Let us, for the moment, just set aside the wildly optimistic 'standard' rates of PPE use you set out a few posts ago and just concentrate on PPE wastage. Your naive assumption that the myriad of NHS trusts could somehow suddenly adopt, like the military, the kind of monoculture, that would allow for the conditions where PPE could be relatively adequately controlled, is quite frankly laughable.

In Mrs Yarra's local NHS Trust alone, there were whole (non ICU facing) departments chewing through PPE at an astonishing rate. These departments were weakly led and required robust direction and intervention from the snr infection control team, to grip the situation. Staff approach to PPE was that it was a PPE 'free for all' with minimal accountability. The situation was gripped, but in the initial chaotic period, the whole concept of PPE R2 was an anathema to many departmental managers, used to a culture of medical accountability, but not necessarily accounting for other seemingly more mundane items.

It is well gripped now, with more than adequate DOS, but at the time it was like herding cats (and/or Crabs).

In sum, you are that far off, I am not entirely sure you are not fishing?

Y
 
I showed your posts on the matter of PPE to Mrs Yarra. She has had a good old chuckle at your 'rates of PPE usage in the NHS'.

Let us, for the moment, just set aside the wildly optimistic 'standard' rates of PPE use you set out a few posts ago and just concentrate on PPE wastage. Your naive assumption that the myriad of NHS trusts could somehow suddenly adopt, like the military, the kind of monoculture, that would allow for the conditions where PPE could be relatively adequately controlled, is quite frankly laughable.

In Mrs Yarra's local NHS Trust alone, there were whole (non ICU facing) departments chewing through PPE at an astonishing rate. These departments were weakly led and required robust direction and intervention from the snr infection control team, to grip the situation. Staff approach to PPE was that it was a PPE 'free for all' with minimal accountability. The situation was gripped, but in the initial chaotic period, the whole concept of PPE R2 was an anathema to many departmental managers, used to a culture of medical accountability, but not necessarily accounting for other seemingly more mundane items.

It is well gripped now, with more than adequate DOS, but at the time it was like herding cats (and/or Crabs).

In sum, you are that far off, I am not entirely sure you are not fishing?

Y
Thanks for the context. So this is more an issue of overuse of stocks and burning through them, than HMG getting bent over by suppliers?

I don’t work in a hospital but £15 BILLION spent on PPE in 4 months just seems crazy. I mean if I had to shred that much cash in an industrial shredder it would probably take me more time!!!!
 
Most normal schools use a large amount of low level PPE.
Not in my experience unless hand sanitiser or disinfectant sprays count as PPE. There's gloves and face masks available if anyone wants to use them but everyone I've seen or spoken to isn't bothering with them. The exception being the receptionists using masks when speaking to members of the public outside of their big plastic screen.

I can't walk 10 metres down a corridor without passing a hand sanitiser dispenser though.
 
Which council workers require PPE? You seem to assume that because someone wears a cloth mask or a surgical mask this is now full PPE?
The guidance for PPE has been pretty clear. Many of the more expensive items like goggles or shields are reusable, and those that aren’t (FP3 respirators and full gowns) are limited to high risk aerosol-generating procedures that were only performed on a few thousand patients.
https://assets.publishing.service.g...orkers_by_secondary_care_clinical_context.pdf

Regarding testing, this is much harder to price. The government has tested about 10 million people though and whilst commercial prices will be nowhere near £125 per test (not sure where you got that from) at least it’s in the right order of magnitude. But just because fraudulent cases have been discovered (and what about the PPE from Turkey which was paid for but not delivered), that does not mean we haven’t seen widespread overcharging.
Social Services for a start. Visits to the most vulnerable didn't stop.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
 

rifleair

War Hero
But a cloth surgical mask does not cost £11 does it? This things cost a few pence at the maximum.
“Full” PPE which consists of a respirator, face shield, gown and multiple gloves are only used in theatre or ICUs by a select number of clinicians. These are the things that actually cost serious money.
I see you gave my last post a stiff ignoring do I'll say it again, my son does not work in theatre or an ICU, he is a paramedic, his guidance which is the wrong wording, his directions were that he would not enter the house of any person who might have any of the symptoms of covid without wearing full PPE. At the height of this he was donning PPE up to 12 times a day to find that maybe one of his calls was actually covid related. Now multiply that by every ambulance in the country and have a guess how much was spent on PPE.
 

Themanwho

LE
Book Reviewer
Not in my experience unless hand sanitiser or disinfectant sprays count as PPE. There's gloves and face masks available if anyone wants to use them but everyone I've seen or spoken to isn't bothering with them. The exception being the receptionists using masks when speaking to members of the public outside of their big plastic screen.

I can't walk 10 metres down a corridor without passing a hand sanitiser dispenser though.
I'm not a teacher myself, and so my information is obviously second hand and anecdotal. Anecdotal information used to form an opinion is always easily challenged, so fair enough. I live in Kent, a high incidence area for Covid, and my opinion is shaped by information from my wife and two friends who are teachers in general schools (one Primary, the other a Grammar). These two teachers I'm not married to both wear masks at least part of the day, and drown in sanitiser about every five minutes according to them. Neither mentioned wearing gloves at all.
 

Yarra

Old-Salt
Thanks for the context. So this is more an issue of overuse of stocks and burning through them, than HMG getting bent over by suppliers?

I don’t work in a hospital but £15 BILLION spent on PPE in 4 months just seems crazy. I mean if I had to shred that much cash in an industrial shredder it would probably take me more time!!!!
I don't work in a hospital either, nor am I a supply chain SME.

However, I do know how hard many, many people throughout NHS and other organisations have worked (including Mrs Y and many I know and respect) to get on top of this particular issue and I would be vary wary in reducing their collective efforts to 'gash Tories p:ss taxpayers cash up wall'; we all know what 'assume' makes...

I'm sure that most reasonable people will accept that mistakes will have been made. Those mistakes are inevitable in a crisis of such a scale and rapidity. However, considering (to my mind) HMG's rather tardy initial response and the UK's rather unique exposure to the Virus (global hub, population density, contemporary politics, etc) and the fact that we are now much better prepared for (the) subsequent waves, I don't think I'd bet my house on how much or little was spent on gripping PPE.

Lucky that darling Rishi can borrow so much, for so few, eh?

Y
 
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I'm not a teacher myself, and so my information is obviously second hand and anecdotal. Anecdotal information used to form an opinion is always easily challenged, so fair enough. I live in Kent, a high incidence area for Covid, and my opinion is shaped by information from my wife and two friends who are teachers in general schools (one Primary, the other a Grammar). These two teachers I'm not married to both wear masks at least part of the day, and drown in sanitiser about every five minutes according to them. Neither mentioned wearing gloves at all.
Interesting. The council bods had access to gloves ( and other ppe ) because of the surfaces, persons, and clothing they might encounter when dealing with public, and that included signing forms, pulling up chairs for the elderly, looking at Mrs Miggins bruise etc.
Considering how kids get themselves into all sorts of scrapes and shenanigans, surprised wrt gloves in schools.
 
I see you gave my last post a stiff ignoring do I'll say it again, my son does not work in theatre or an ICU, he is a paramedic, his guidance which is the wrong wording, his directions were that he would not enter the house of any person who might have any of the symptoms of covid without wearing full PPE. At the height of this he was donning PPE up to 12 times a day to find that maybe one of his calls was actually covid related. Now multiply that by every ambulance in the country and have a guess how much was spent on PPE.
What do you mean by full PPE as per the below?

 

Themanwho

LE
Book Reviewer
What do you mean? Why do you care? Are you so consumed by trying to prove yourself right that you are willing to go to JohnG levels of combination nitpicking/obfuscation/bluster/twisting of reality? (I think I can guess your answer to this last question).

FFS get a life, or failing that find a different hobby horse to ride into the ground. To quote Robin Williams: "You are in more dire need of a blowjob than any white man in history".
 
What do you mean? Why do you care? Are you so consumed by trying to prove yourself right that you are willing to go to JohnG levels of combination nitpicking/obfuscation/bluster/twisting of reality? (I think I can guess your answer to this last question).

FFS get a life, or failing that find a different hobby horse to ride into the ground. To quote Robin Williams: "You are in more dire need of a blowjob than any white man in history".
I’m replying to a poster who addressed me directly and said I was ignoring his previous message. No one is forcing you to engage in the discussion. ;D
 

Themanwho

LE
Book Reviewer
I’m replying to a poster who addressed me directly and said I was ignoring his previous message. No one is forcing you to engage in the discussion. ;D
No need to thank me, old love. Just stop boring me.
 
The price the taxpayer pays for political manoeuvring.

'Sir Mark Sedwill is in line for a payout of nearly £250,000 after agreeing to step down as Cabinet Secretary early, a letter from Boris Johnson reveals.

'The outgoing head of the civil service, who has also served as National Security Adviser to the PM, will receive a “compensation payment of £248,189” when he leaves the top Whitehall role later this year. A letter from Mr Johnson to Cabinet Office permanent secretary Alex Chisholm says the payment is “likely to be in the form of a pension contribution”, with the PM authorising the top-up “in consideration of his employment position” and “Sir Mark stepping down early”. "You have advised me that this is regular and legal, and value for money to do so,” Mr Johnson says.'


The price of silence I suppose, along with a peerage and another job.
 

Grownup_Rafbrat

LE
Book Reviewer
I’m replying to a poster who addressed me directly and said I was ignoring his previous message. No one is forcing you to engage in the discussion. ;D
And bang goes another thread that has been both informative and entertaining.
 

Themanwho

LE
Book Reviewer
The price of silence I suppose, along with a peerage and another job.
I consider it the price of removing Sedwill from a position where he could frustrate the will of the Government, and therefore worth it.
 

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