Boris - The Prime Minister

First thoughts on PMBoris, will he make a difference?


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Truxx

LE
The analysis is made up. The PPE standard for dealing with C-19 patients are what is listed above. Even at its peak there weren’t more than 15,000 people in hospital with Covid in the country.
Meanwhile the rest of the NHS was shut down for non essential treatment. Clinical staff not dealing directly with infected patients would wear a simple non fluid protective mask which costs a few pence, and a standard plastic apron which costs the same.
Non-clinical staff were only wearing the same basic masks. Beware fake analysis.
Get out of here. Most medical facilities looked like something off star wars with even the deck hands looking like stormtroopers.

You cannot have " huge shortage of PPE" and "much reduced demand for PPE" in the same workspace.

And even if your hypothesis is correct, then my point still stands. A proper analysis would have looked at what the demand actually was and only then risked a tendentious headline
 

offog

LE
The government could have requisitioned factories to make this stuff here for a tiny fraction of the cost.
What factories would these be?
Who would do the work on what equipment?
What materials would be needed and who would produce them?
 

offog

LE
The analysis is made up. The PPE standard for dealing with C-19 patients are what is listed above. Even at its peak there weren’t more than 15,000 people in hospital with Covid in the country.
Meanwhile the rest of the NHS was shut down for non essential treatment. Clinical staff not dealing directly with infected patients would wear a simple non fluid protective mask which costs a few pence, and a standard plastic apron which costs the same.
Non-clinical staff were only wearing the same basic masks. Beware fake analysis.
I see you ignored the care homes which over night suddenly became the responsibility of government. You are also ignoring schools which had to stay open due to the type of children they look after.
 
If you give more than a cursory glance at my post, you'll spot I didn't list everyone in the NHS, which is 1.5million individuals.

I realise, I also forgot the council workers who require PPE from my break down above.

Essentially a massive amount of people required a unbelievably large amount of PPE, in a very short time, at the same time as the rest of the world required it.
I would suggest that at a time of Crisis its a good thing that we had the financial ability too, and purchasing power to obtain sufficient stocks to keep the country going.



At first glance a slightly harder thing to defend. However, test and trace involves testing. A current commercially available kit costs £125. Then you have all the facilities to process that test. Which have been expanded. Then you need the people to process the data, and to make contact with the individuals, and get their details, and those who they've been in contact with. This is not cheap.



You're entire hostility comes fro mthe first clause of your argument, which is proven not true. As is the rest of this paragraph. Indeed there were news stories earlier of some bloke offering his massive supply of PPE to the government. Later investigation on here showed he was a dodgy conman type and the government ignored him. I believe the details are in the CV19 thread elsewhere.
Which council workers require PPE? You seem to assume that because someone wears a cloth mask or a surgical mask this is now full PPE?
The guidance for PPE has been pretty clear. Many of the more expensive items like goggles or shields are reusable, and those that aren’t (FP3 respirators and full gowns) are limited to high risk aerosol-generating procedures that were only performed on a few thousand patients.
https://assets.publishing.service.g...orkers_by_secondary_care_clinical_context.pdf

Regarding testing, this is much harder to price. The government has tested about 10 million people though and whilst commercial prices will be nowhere near £125 per test (not sure where you got that from) at least it’s in the right order of magnitude. But just because fraudulent cases have been discovered (and what about the PPE from Turkey which was paid for but not delivered), that does not mean we haven’t seen widespread overcharging.
 
What factories would these be?
Who would do the work on what equipment?
What materials would be needed and who would produce them?
You are aware that the U.K. still has a reasonably sized garments industry right? And we also make high grade fabrics that are used in gowns?

I see you ignored the care homes which over night suddenly became the responsibility of government. You are also ignoring schools which had to stay open due to the type of children they look after.
And how much PPE was being used in schools?
 

BuggerAll

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Get out of here. Most medical facilities looked like something off star wars with even the deck hands looking like stormtroopers.

You cannot have " huge shortage of PPE" and "much reduced demand for PPE" in the same workspace.

And even if your hypothesis is correct, then my point still stands. A proper analysis would have looked at what the demand actually was and only then risked a tendentious headline
Funny old thing. Matty made the error of mentioning the massive waste of PPE - bring on crying nurses on Twitter - he was roundly castigated by the media and the wasters where empowered to carry on wasting in a prodigious scale.

Where were the fearless investigative journos checking the facts? Of course not far easier to get you anti-government agitprop from crying nurses on Twitter.
 

Truxx

LE
Funny old thing. Matty made the error of mentioning the massive waste of PPE - bring on crying nurses on Twitter - he was roundly castigated by the media and the wasters where empowered to carry on wasting in a prodigious scale.

Where were the fearless investigative journos checking the facts? Of course not far easier to get you anti-government agitprop from crying nurses on Twitter.
Nail

Head.
 

Truxx

LE
Funny old thing. Matty made the error of mentioning the massive waste of PPE - bring on crying nurses on Twitter - he was roundly castigated by the media and the wasters where empowered to carry on wasting in a prodigious scale.

Where were the fearless investigative journos checking the facts? Of course not far easier to get you anti-government agitprop from crying nurses on Twitter.
Se also "we now have sufficient stocks to deal with a second wave"

This is good.


It is also loggie speak for "we have massively over- purchsed"
 

rifleair

War Hero
Which council workers require PPE? You seem to assume that because someone wears a cloth mask or a surgical mask this is now full PPE?
The guidance for PPE has been pretty clear. Many of the more expensive items like goggles or shields are reusable, and those that aren’t (FP3 respirators and full gowns) are limited to high risk aerosol-generating procedures that were only performed on a few thousand patients.
https://assets.publishing.service.g...orkers_by_secondary_care_clinical_context.pdf

Regarding testing, this is much harder to price. The government has tested about 10 million people though and whilst commercial prices will be nowhere near £125 per test (not sure where you got that from) at least it’s in the right order of magnitude. But just because fraudulent cases have been discovered (and what about the PPE from Turkey which was paid for but not delivered), that does not mean we haven’t seen widespread overcharging.
You just have no idea about healthcare, my son is a front line paramedic, and the guidance is very clear, for every call to a suspected covid patient they could not enter the house unless wearing FULL PPE.
Nine times out of ten the patient did not have covid. Yes some items are reusable but not until they are cleaned properly, so you have to carry spare everything plus the cleaning agents.
Times that by the entire ambulance fleet in the country and then add on the hospital, care homes and other requirements.
How much do you think it would cost ?
 

offog

LE
You are aware that the U.K. still has a reasonably sized garments industry right? And we also make high grade fabrics that are used in gowns?



And how much PPE was being used in schools?
No we don't. We may have design and management but the items are made oversea not in the UK. It may have passed you by but just in time is the the manufacturing way of life. Factories do not hold stock like they used to. Where is this stock coming from who is producing this raw material. I was reading the other day about the fantastic new North American trade deal Trump set up requiring car workers to be paid $16 and hour. The idea being that this was higher than the wage in Mexico so the factories would move north. In reality it was more cost effective to pay Mexicans $16 an hour than build a new factory in the north. There is a reason why the clothing industry move the factories overseas.

As to the schools, they are the ones that stayed open and on a normal working day would go through lots of PPE just to care for the children. Feeding or changing would require PPE to protect the child and the staff. We now add in additional items like face coverings to ensure that externally venerable children are not infected.
 
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/886707/T1_poster_Recommended_PPE_for_healthcare_workers_by_secondary_care_clinical_context.pdf

In my local authority: Anyone who needed to enter another persons house.
And yes, a face covering is PPE. Which needs to be purchased from a manufacturer. Equally, as we're talking simple cloth I believe it is now a requirement for all staff in a hospital to wear such an item. These are not small numbers!

Regarding testing, this is much harder to price. The government has tested about 10 million people though and whilst commercial prices will be nowhere near £125 per test (not sure where you got that from) at least it’s in the right order of magnitude. But just because fraudulent cases have been discovered (and what about the PPE from Turkey which was paid for but not delivered), that does not mean we haven’t seen widespread overcharging.
Knock yourself out:
 
Frankly, I'm confused... on the one hand we had Directors of large but unnamed NHS trusts pleadingly calling the BBC to get the phone numbers of PPE suppliers because the dire shortage of kit was killing their employees and on the other hand we bought 14.9bn quids worth of kit we didn’t need?

We have since learned also that sweat shop factories using free child labour and £1/hour adult labour in Leicester could have made everything the UK needed in a few nightshifts. Expensive though because they’d have had to stop pause production for their fashion house customers.
 

endure

GCM
rishi.jpg
 
https://assets.publishing.service.g...orkers_by_secondary_care_clinical_context.pdf

In my local authority: Anyone who needed to enter another persons house.
And yes, a face covering is PPE. Which needs to be purchased from a manufacturer. Equally, as we're talking simple cloth I believe it is now a requirement for all staff in a hospital to wear such an item. These are not small numbers!



Knock yourself out:
But a cloth surgical mask does not cost £11 does it? This things cost a few pence at the maximum.
“Full” PPE which consists of a respirator, face shield, gown and multiple gloves are only used in theatre or ICUs by a select number of clinicians. These are the things that actually cost serious money.
 
The Telegraph are reporting that £10 billion had been spent on test and trace, and £15 billion has been spent on PPE. Wow. Just wow. This COVID-19 episode is a huge effing scandal.

Oooh that’s partisan.
lets not forget NHS computerisation, PFI initiatives costing the NHS 10 billion a year at naughties prices. Not forgetting ancillaries for computerisation for the treasury and HO . I mean I grew that the treasury bears some inquirey, epic failure by the PAC . But be prepared for the crap to hit messrs Blair and Brown.......again.
 
But a cloth surgical mask does not cost £11 does it? This things cost a few pence at the maximum.
“Full” PPE which consists of a respirator, face shield, gown and multiple gloves are only used in theatre or ICUs by a select number of clinicians. These are the things that actually cost serious money.
**** me...

I never said a cloth mask cost £11. I was pointing out the average cost, if you split the £15bn by the amount of PPE items used by just the nurses in the NHS. In apprently, an attempt to show how the massive need of PPE would quite easilly ammount to that £15bn.

 
...before the pandemic we had large stocks valued at £50-100m...
Are they the same stockpiles that it turned out we didn't have or we're expired when this kicked off, causing all the 'incompetent government planning' rants in the press, social media and even on here?
 

Themanwho

LE
Book Reviewer
You are aware that the U.K. still has a reasonably sized garments industry right? And we also make high grade fabrics that are used in gowns?



And how much PPE was being used in schools?
There's a wide variation. My wife teaches in a special needs school looking after severely handicapped children, depending on need she wears gloves, mask/ faceshield, scrubs, apron, and always uses gallons of hand gel. At the least, she wears a mask, at the other extreme she looks like an extra from "Contagion" .

Most normal schools use a large amount of low level PPE.
 
True, for the council down in Brighton, I'm told ppe had to be available on demand and included mask, gloves, goggles/faceshield and disposable apron, wipes etc. Sufficient to cover all council workers dealing with members of the public or who would require them for work. These are not one off issue, they had to have stocks to go for weeks.
 

Themanwho

LE
Book Reviewer
Se also "we now have sufficient stocks to deal with a second wave"

This is good.


It is also loggie speak for "we have massively over- purchsed"
To be fair, better than "We have massively under-purchased"... One can only imagine Suppurating Civvie's howls of anguish if that were the case.
 

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